My husband and I are leaving for Germany this coming Saturday. Is it safe to travel there with the war going on? Any input would be helpful...Thanks!

Hi Betsy, <BR> <BR>don`t worry about your trip to Germany. <BR>It`ll be as safe as always to travel there. I am German and of course we get in touch with the war in Kosovo, but I think in the same way that you are: we watch TV or listen to the radio. The only thing i could imagine is that your flights will be slightly delayed caused by extended air traffic over Europe. <BR> <BR>Please enjoy your trip and don´t worry too much <BR> <BR>Miriam

Betsy, I don't want to over alarm you, but I relly do not understand how people can tell you don't worry. In situations like this, terrorists have been known, in the past, to strike out against American citizens. I do recall Lockerbie which has been in the news in recent days concerning turning over some of the people involved with the bombing. It dosen't happen often, but it has happened. It also doesn't always happen right away either. I think Lockerbie happened something like a year after the events that triggered it. Of course, airport security will be heightened and some will argue this is the safest time to travel. They could be right. No one knows for sure. But I wouldn't depend on European nations to tell you at the beginning of their peak tourist season that maybe it is not a good idea to come right now. And don't look at our governement to tell you either. Can you imagine what would happen to this year's tourst season if either gave stronger warnings about travelling right now? <BR> <BR>Not for nothing, but I think I would be less concerned about travelling if we weren't bombing Kosovo or Iraq. You have to rely on airport/airline security which has proven to be vulnerable in the past. Others will tell you to go, but take precautions like don't adverising you are an American or dressing like one or frequenting places where American travellers usually do, etc. Lots of luck. <BR> <BR>Maybe, in times like this, it is better to travel to other parts of the world like the Carribean or Hawaii or Peru.

While the truth is probably someplace in between the two preceding posts I want to stop the paranoia right here. YES you could be in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, unless you live in the middle of nowhere, that can happen anywhere. [even in the middle of nowhere!] <BR>There are basic precautions to take whether we are bombing or not. Germany is one of the safest nations for American visitors at any time. If you are genuinely worried about Germany, then don't travel. And I do understand the concerns... we know how to cope at hope. Abroad the culture and systems are different. <BR>I also find the cynicism concerning trael warnings deplorable. While our government's foreign policy doesn't take individual citizens into account, it also is pretty careful concerning public announcements and warnings. For example, having left Skopje the day before the Public Announcement was issued, I can evaluate that it is well drawn. <BR>One of the most important precautions you can take is to keep your voice down. We Americans have very loud voices. Maybe it's our wide open spaces... who knows. But it is both courtesy [and a safety precaution] to kepp your voice down.

We just returned from Vienna and Italy. Our daughter is an exchange student in Vienna. You definitely "feel" the impact of the war in Europe. It is always on the news. In Vienna, my daughter encounters nazi followers (mainly young boys) who are anti- American. She has been told to speak German when they are around. Grafiti staing "Nato out" can be seen throughout the city. At times we are concerned about her since she attends a prestigious American International School that has armed guards around it, and warnings to American students to avoid travel to Prague and Greece were issued. All this considered, it wouldn't have stopped me from visiting her. I didn't feel at all fearful in either Vienna or Italy (Florence and Tuscany). It as just the word of mouth talk that made my senses more alert. There were plenty of American tourists and I saw many police. Yes, there are protesters, but the protests are not unruly. For now, I would say go and don't be fearful. Germany has many precautions at their airports, especially Munich. I have never felt more safe than when boarding a plane at Munich. <BR> <BR>Denise <BR>

Denise, as for Munich .... they really didn't do such a great job during the Olympics held there (1972?) when several jewish olympians were killed. I was also living in Germany during 1993 when the neo-Nazi's were venting there anti-American feelings as well as their desire to get rid of turkish and italian workers who were viewed as the source of their economical problems at the time. I was warned to keep a low profile and to give these people a wide berth which I did, but it was not a comfortable year. There were several instances where turkish people and their homes were set afire and attacked and killed. <BR> <BR>S. Fowler ... while you consider the cynicism of our government's travel warnings to be deploreable I find it deploreable that they do not disclose the true risks involved and let it's citizens decide on the facts if they wish to travel or not. When the PAn Am flight loaded with Americans inluding many college students was blown out of the sky over Lockerbie no one knew why until after the fact. And our government was rightfully criticized for not issuing appropriate travel warnings and letting the public know of the risks involved. <BR> <BR>Perhaps the greatest example of our government's lack of dilgience in issuing warnings is Pearl Harbor when it didn't even let it's military leaders in the area know of the imminent threat. <BR> <BR>More recently, I was in Paris on business when Desert Storm broke out. We received a call at work the day before the shooting was going to start to get out as quickly as we could and were told not to even waste time retrieving our papers and notebooks in the conference roms, but to leave immediately on the earliest flights back to the US. Obviously, someone thought the risks of staying there in Paris was more than they were wiling to take or have us take. And guess what? It wasn't our government who issued the warning and told us of the risks involved. Of course, nothing did happen. There were no bombings and nobody got kidnapped or killed, but events could have been different. In the end, it has to be weighed if being there is worth the risks of being there. <BR> <BR>I am not telling anyone not to travel. That is their decision to make. I am just wondering why everyone is so sure there is nothing to worry about or that this is not a riskier time to be travelling to that part of the world. Wishful thinking is one thing and facts are another. Personally, I like to have the facts and then decide if I want to travel to one part of the world or not and take the risk.

I just returned from several weeks in Germany. I did encounter a anti-US and NATO demonstration in both Frankfurt and Berlin. Steer clear and don't speak English or advertise you are Americans. I've hear people say they are Canadain to deflect hostility. Are you on a tour or doing it solo? <BR>Security at Frankfurt airport is always high so if you see police with machine guns they are always there so don't get too alarmed. <BR>There are a large number of unemployed with many in the former East German states so tensions are already high over that issue. <BR>All that said I never felt personally threatened but I didn't draw attention to myself and when I saw the gatherings I went in another direction. <BR>

Well, normally nothing I read here gets my temper up, but John is definitely pushing it. I'm a US-educated, proudly European citizen, and I can assure ANYONE that when travelling in 95% of Western Europe you are a lot safer here than most places in the US. From Vienna to Madrid, from Stockholm to Rome you can walk around (relatively, of course) safely during any time of the day. Try doing that in Detroit, LA, or even better, in your capital city, DC. Not one week went by during my time in the US that the papers didn't report on some gruesome murder, and IMHO you are much more likely to be shot in a fast food restaurant or at a post office in the US than anywhere here. The incidents you mention about Turks in Germany were isolated and caused widespread outrage. I don't recall any outrage when that black man was tied to a pick up and dragged to his death in Louisiana or wherever it was, or when that Japanese exchange student was shot to death outside a private home while trying to find a Halloween party. Clearly these are isolated incidents as well, as are all those dead (European)tourists on FL and CA interstates, so I wouldn't warn anyone against travelling to the US. Of course, never mess with the NYPD, beacause if you're unarmed you're likely to be shot 22 times. The point of all this is that if you use common sense, you are as safe in Western Europe as you would be in the US, if not a lot safer. American short-sightedness very often makes me mad, and IMHO your arguments are ridiculous.

I am answering this from the Hotel Uhland in Munich. I too was concerned about the current political climate in Europe. So far we have been to France, Belgium, Holland, Austria, & now in Munich. We have not heard or seen any reference to Kosovo except from CNN & other Americans. It is pretty much business as usual, I wouldn't worry too much.

<BR>This is in reply to John. I am well aware of the tragedy at the Olympics in Munich. Because of that terrible situation, Munich's airport has high security. I was pratically stripped searched when leaving for the u.S. However, I felt secure when boarding. I do agree that there is a certain paranoia. Keeping a low profile is a good idea. My 16 year old is there and she uses the same precaution that she would when traveling in New York City. The unfamiliar is what is frightening. Tragedies can happen in our own backyards. My daughter is with the Lauder Foundation Exchange program, and if situations are tense, they would airlift the children out. As stated by others, I did not feel insecure in Europe at all. It is this talk which makes me feel insecure, not the actual experience. <BR>Denise

Well, Chris, sorry to prick your senstivities, but some of your comments do need a response. You really don't think I would let you make such comments without answering, do you? <BR> <BR>The isolated incidents against the turkish people in Germany were not so isolated as you claim. They were almost a daily occurrence which according to my definition does not classify it as an isolated incident. There was an outrage by the general population in Germany as you indicated, but that didn't stop the attacks while I was there. <BR> <BR>The attack to the Japanese student and black were truly unfortunate and despicaple acts. And I as well as many other Americans are outraged by these type of incidents. However, they were isolated incidents as you correctly pointed out. I am not aware of any group that has publically procalimed their desire to systematically eliminate Japanese or blacks. I may stand corrected on that point. We did/do have some pro-Arian, neo-Nazi, extreme rightist groups in this country that may have a desire to do just that, but our authorities have and continue to seek them out and eliminate them. <BR> <BR>The incidents against German tourists in Fla and CA were equally distatesful and contrary to your belief there was a public outrage against it in this country. <BR> <BR>I do agree with you 100% that in general it is much safer to walk European streets rather than here in the US. That was never the subject of the discussion. Perhaps you misinterpretated the discussion. My comments about it being risker to travel in Europe at this time was not because of any threats from the locals, but from possible retalitory strikes from Kosovo or Irag citizens or sympathsizers. I honestly was not aware of anti-Nato and anti-American demonstrations evidently going on over there as indicated by other posters. The neo-Nazi thing is not new, at least to me as I indicated. My comment about Munich was precipitated by Denise's remarks concerning her daughter's experiences in Vienna and by Denise's comment about how safe she felt boarding a plane in Munich. <BR> <BR>As for warning foreign tourists to the dangers of travelling in the US, they should be warned. American streets are more dangerous and visitors (as well as us locals) are more likely to be physically harmed than they would be at home in Europe. That is precisely my point. I think that travellers do and should have the right to know what all the dangers and risks are for travelling wherever they go. I can't say for sure, but I certainly hope that the German tourist was told about what was going on and the increased risk of travelling in the US especially to FLA and CA when those incidents took place. I think they had a right to know that. <BR> <BR>Your comment about American shortsightnedness and my arguments being ridiulous were really uncalled for. However, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs and the right to voice them. That is something we Americans do take pride in for ourselves as well as others.

Denise, I had no intention of spreading any "parnoia". I originally stated that I just don't understand people's eagerness to say there is no additional risk with the current events that are going on. I didn't say it was a high risk because I really don't know. I just think there would be less risk if were dropping food on Kosovo and Iraq rather than bombs. It isn't me, but other posters who have been over there recently who are posting that there are anti-Nato and anti-American demonstrations going on. I didn't make that up. Evidently, those are the facts as unpleasant as they may be. <BR> <BR>You seem to have a confidence in the airport/airline and government security that I honestly don't share. In general, they have a wonderful record, but history has taught us that exceptions have occurred and it is only after the fact that we learn there was reaon or events that did precipitate the strike. Would anybody really be surprised if an American or Nato country's plane was bombed, for example, by terrorist because of Kosovo or Iraq? It's our opinions and not a matter of right or wrong. <BR> <BR>Obviously, things are happening over there. Some posters saw nothing and others did. You, yourself, was there and your daughter is over there. <BR> <BR>As I stated earlier, I would prefer to know and deal with facts rather than wishful thinking. Of course, I would hope and wish there was nothing going on over there and there were no inreased risk in travelling to that part of the world. However, if the facts are that things are happening because of the events going on, then they shouldn't be ignored. <BR> <BR>I am sure your daughter's mentors over there are aware of the events and are concerned about the student's safety and would get them out of harm's way if necessary. <BR> <BR>There is nothing wrong with being aware and taking some reasonable precautions. It is only criminal when people don't.

I'm sure I'll regret replying. Oh well. <BR>John- I didn't express myself carefully. I was referring to YOUR cynicism re: the trael reports and was trying to respond the that, acknowledging the focus of the State Department in these situations. I have checked the travel advisory sites for the US, UK, Canada and Australia to see what they are saying about Macedonia, the situation where I feel I have some experience to judge. The facts in the US State Dept. Public Announcement regarding Macedonia are accurately expressed and the US recommendations are right down the middle, neither the most severe, nor the most lenient. <BR>I'm not sure citing the disasters that have happened/or may happen here and abroad is particularly helpful. <BR>What is helpful is the advice to keep a low profile, know where you are going and stay away from demonstrations etc... <BR>And if you are truly concerned stay home. Each of us has a different threshold. I hadn't planned on being in Skopje when the NATO bombing started, but it happened and I coped. In retrospect I am glad I was. It gave me a perspective not available from Chicago. But if you DO go take the precautions you should take in a strange place anyway. <BR>John- You claim you aren't advising people to not travel, but your posts are full of things designed just to do that. And, while those events happened and are terrible, the analogy isn't always there.

S. Fowler, I am sorry you feel that you would regret replying. You really shouldn't. I don't like persoanl attacks and do try to avoid doing so to anyone. I am just expressing my thoughts on the questions that come up and what is posted by others. I mean nothing personal about my posts. If you have felt they are, then I apologize to both you and anyone esle who feels that way and suggest that it is a result of deficiencies in my communications skills rather than anything else. <BR> <BR>I thought you were referring to MY cynicism in your previous post. I wasn't confused by that. Concerning the State Department's travel advisories for Macedonia, you have judged that they are accurate based on your experience and they well may be, but I respectfully submit to you that you really don't know. You think you know, but do you really? Do you have some other knowledge to support their views? Maybe you do. The only true test will be time which will prove if their assessment was correct or not. <BR> <BR>I agree with most of everything else you say with respect to keeping a low profile, staying away from demonstrations, etc. That's just plain common sense. And yes, being there, would give you a different perspective. I've been in similar situations and it is different whether you are there or sitting in Chicago. <BR> <BR>I'm sorry you feel that I am advising people not to travel because I really am not doing that. <BR> <BR>Let me try to state what I was trying to say perhaps very badly. First, I do personally think that the risks of travelling to that part of the world are greater than they were prior to start of the bombing. How much greater? I really don't know. I am not privy to all the information. I never told anyone not to go. I said it is an individual's decision to make whether the need to be there was worth the risk of going to or of being there. That is certainly not something I could or would decide for anyone except myself. <BR> <BR>Evidently, you as well as some others feel confident in the travel advisories put out by the State Dept. and airport/airline security. That's ok. I don't share that confidence, but you can if you choose, and I can live and respect your choices. <BR> <BR>You said my analogies were not always there. Perhaps not. I was trying to use them to illustrate that our government as well as other governments and airline/airport security did not prevent a Lockerbie or the Munich Olympics or the attacks on German tourists in FLA and CA. You can argue that no one can guarantee the personal safety of anyone for 100% of the time for everyplace in the World. This is true. Our government could not and did not stop the deaths of JFK, RFK or Martin Luther. Is that another bad analogy? <BR> <BR>What I am an advocate of is the right of travellers to have as much information about a potentially dangerous situation that could affect their lives. People have the right to make informed decisions. I maintain that governments and airports and airlines haven't always been as forthcoming as they could have and should have been. I don't think it is necessary to go into their reasons or to debate them. And I am not saying that this is what is going on with the current situation. I am just saying that they do have blemishes on their record which has been historically recorded, unfortunately. <BR> <BR>If you interpret what I am saying as promoting people not to travel, then I don't know what else to say. Betsy asked for any input. I gave her my input. It is her decision to make. Others were quick to tell her ... there is nothing to worry about ... there is risk with everything you do no matter where you are which is true. However, I maintain that the risk of getting hit by a train is greater if you are walking down the center of the railroad tracks. If I gave her food for thought, so be it. Is that so terrible? If she decides she wants to walk down the center of the tracks that is her decision, but am I wrong in pointing out that she will be doing so at greater risk? <BR> <BR>This whole discussion is rather academic since neither one of us in a position to offer any real concrete facts. I don't think you would argue that the risks are not greater now. You have decided or feel that they are acceptable. I haven't decided anything, actually, since I am not in a postion where I have to. <BR> <BR>Let me end by copying here the decsion of at least one couple who were planning to spend the month of May in Greece and asked if it was safe to travel there since there were riots in Athens. I found it interesting because, 1. I did not participate in the dsicussion, and 2. all the responses, except one, were in favor of going. <BR> <BR>Let me copy the one dissenting post and as you will see it was based on input from an uncle who is living in Athens ... <BR>Author: Katina ([email protected]) <BR> Date: 4/07/1999, 3:02 pm ET <BR> <BR>Message: We too are undecided and having a terrible time with this mess. Do we go or not? Our reservations are 4/29 and we have been planning for 1 year. Opinions seem to be 50/50. My uncle who lives in Athens is concerned about riots and anti Americanism. His advice was if Slobbo allows peacekeeping forces in everything <BR>will be ok, otherwise stay home!! <BR> <BR>Author: Charlie ([email protected]) <BR> Date: 4/01/1999, 2:49 am ET <BR> <BR>Message: Thanks to all who responed to our message ... we feel like we've gotten good advice from friends even though we don't know you. We decided to cancel after all. We concluded the ill-feeling toward NATO & Americans will continue even if the fighting stops and that it wouldn't be much fun to be constantly on guard and anxious. The good news is Delta waived their cancellation fee ($150 per ticket); Auto Europe refunded %100 of our money; and all the hotels we had reservations at honored our cancellation request ... so all we lost is all the time spent planning the trip. Perhaps the best part is that we got a terrific deal from American Airlines to Spain, where we'll spend a month less a 7-day detour into Morocco. All's well that ends well (we only wish the poor ethic Albanians in Kosovo could say the same.) <BR> <BR>So there are travelers out there who are weighing whether not the increased risks, which is at least perceived if not true, are worth it or not. <BR> <BR>Hopefully, this post has clarified my previous postings. And I am very sincere when I tell you not to hesitate to posting a reply if you want. I view this as a forum where people can voice their opinions and give their advice without coming under personal attacks. We may have different views, but I don't think anyone intentionally trys to give bad advice. Which brings to mind an old business adage that if there are 3 people at a meeting and they all agree, then there were at least 2 who were not needed. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

John- <BR> <BR>If we had to know everything for sure before we made a decision we'd never get out of bed in the morning. We all discover our threshold of certainty in both our daily contexts and when we travel. <BR> <BR>The Kosovo situation has certainly raised valid questions concerning security while travelling. In my opinion [and it is only my opinion] what is helpful is on the spot information, not a list of past failings. <BR> <BR>Re Skopje: I was on the spot in contexts where information was available to me. Maybe I don't "really" know [see above], but I think I know enough to make the judgments I did. You can claim I don't know enough, but guess what? You don't know whether I do or not. <BR> <BR>We have all shared a lot on this forum. I have been helped by others and hope I have been helpful in return. We are all welcome to post as we wish. I simply pointed out, perhaps in a non-helpful manner, that I didn't think your posts were helpful, lacking, as they did, current on-the-spot information. My error in forum manners was for my reply to address the appropriateness of your posts rather than the content. My apologies. <BR>

S. Fowler is right: stop this paranoia. If you are searching for a safe place to go, I don't think that still exists. What about the attack in Egypt in 1997, or the various bomb explosions in London and Paris during the last years. <BR> <BR>Overseas media talk about the "war in Europe". I am absolutely not denying that there are bad things going on, but Europe is NOT (yet) in war. Upto now this is a conflict in a few small Balkan countries and we all hope that it will not expand. <BR>

S. Fowler, I don't agree about not bringing up past failings. When we don't remember the lessons history has taught us then we are doomed to make the same mistakes in the future. I brought them up because they were appropriate to the discussion. <BR> <BR>However, you are right. I don't have any first hand knowledge of the current situation in Europe and I should have kept my comments to myself. It is a rule I try to follow. <BR> <BR>Myriam, the Balkans are part of Europe! <BR>As for past bombings in Paris, since you mention it, did result in people dying, some of which were American tourists. There was also another "small" conflict which was in the same area that started with one single shot and resulted in WWI. Sorry S. Fowler. It is just not possible to bury the past as if it never happened. <BR> <BR>Denise, if my daughter was over there, I wouldn't hesitate to go either. That would be well worth any increased risks there may be. <BR> <BR>Well, I think we have said enough about this subject and propose going on to other more happier subjects.

Betsy: My wife, her parents and her brother are heading to Germany in May. Our trip is certainly "on". <BR> <BR>I have read the various responses and everyone has something intertesting to add. <BR> <BR>I have lived in Frankfurt and worked on a top secret missle system in the mid-80's. Terrorism was at an all-time high and it seemed as though there was a bombing somewhere in our region almost on a regular basis. I actually saw the explosion at Rhein Main Air Force base in 1985. Every morning, for almost a year, I would look under my car for explosives before leaving for work and had it searched again twice prior to entering our facillity in Frankfurt. I flew Pan Am flight #103 at least two times each year prior to that fateful day in Scotland. The Red Army Faction was in "full swing" and anti-American sentiment was high. <BR> <BR>During my nearly three years there, at no time did I feel in any danger. I felt as secure as I would of at home even when I was in my "morning ritual" of checking the car, which was just an exercise in precaution anyway, since I had US government license plates. <BR> <BR>I was not attacked or threatened at any time. I merely went about my business and didn't look for any trouble. I cannot imagine that the present time represents any more danger to the traveler, in fact, probably much less. As Chris mentioned, you are probably safer in Germany today than in many US cities where random acts of violence occur much more frequently. <BR> <BR>I had a colleague that I worked with in Frankfurt and his name was "Chris". He didn't get a scratch in three years there, but was shot and killed near Huntsville, AL during a convenience store robbery right after he returned home. He was just a passerby. <BR> <BR>Be cautious, but by all means go and have fun! <BR>

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry it took me so long to respond. My 15 year old spilled a soda in my keyboard...just got the new one. Anyway, thank you all for your input. We've decided to make the trip and we leave this Saturday. God willing we'll get there safe and sound, and return home safely. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and will keep a low profile and keep our voices down. Thanks again.