Frank O. File

A word of advice to Steve Mueller: I though your response was far too cerebral and levelheaded to be posted anywhere near this sinkhole. My god, man, it is though you actually READ Margie’s original post and UNDERSTOOD what she meant. How could you? Why, you’ve stabbed Paris in the back!<BR><BR>(Obviously this site has been infiltrated by people who have been to Paris and still somehow don’t love it and, by gum, that’s just gotta stop.)<BR><BR>Anyway, Steve, your thought and reasoning shown through like a ray of light amid the ignorant barbs of Paris sycophants. <BR><BR>

getStuffed

francofile,your post did not shine so brightly,as hard as you tried, you didn't quite make it.

Sue

Capo, I’m glad you enjoyed my ‘dating’ analogy, but I’m not sure I can agree with you about us just having separate realities. I think there’s only one reality, and the state of being in love warps it. The hard part is trying to decide if the warp is harmless, maybe even beneficial, and when it is going to put us at risk. It’s one thing to decide that your wife is curvaceous instead of fat, or that your husband isn’t so much bald as a hunk with that sexy Kojak look, or that you really like those duck gizzards that the Parisian chef put in your salad. It’s another thing to dismiss as ‘unimportant’ a woman’s tendency to ‘spontaneously’ empty your bank account, or a man’s ‘loving’ jealousy and possessiveness, or the statistics on crime in the Paris metro. <BR><BR>What’s the right balance between a reality warp that simply makes us happy and a reality warp that is naive or even risky? Aye, there’s the rub. : - )

jpm

The rudeness continues..well at least Margie has gone on to better things I hope. Margie if you are reading this I completely empathize with you. Unfortunately there are a lot of unhappy people who have to take things out and decided that you are their target. Kudos to the ones who tried to be honest and sincere with this lady.

xxx

Wow, Capo, how do you have this effect on women???

Paula

Karl you are rude look at what you just said. You are the pathetic one.

Steve Mueller

<BR>Frank, I got a good laugh from your "infiltration" remark.<BR><BR>Judy, I agree that some people have attitude problems. One of the greatest of these problems is a tendency to see "ugly Americans" around every corner.<BR><BR>The notion that Americans are somehow poorer tourists than citizens of other nations is a stereotype. Could you possibly recognize an "ugly Japanese" tourist if you don't speak Japanese and can't understand their bitching?<BR><BR>You state that a distinguishing characteristic of an ugly American is ignorance. Exactly what is that these people are ignorant of that offends you? Is someone an ugly, ignorant American simply because they can't speak fluent French and German? Does an unfamiliarity with the social nuances associated with each country qualify someone as an ugly American? If these are true, you will find that many of the ugly Americans are not American at all, but, rather, Italian and British and Japanese and Canadian.<BR><BR>Perhaps you have encountered the mythical American tourist that roams the European continent loudly demanding "how much is that in American money?". I have yet to meet this person. Those that claim this person is a woman report that she is overweight and wears stretch pants, whereas those that claim this person is male report that he wears white shorts with a baseball cap and speaks with a southern accent.<BR><BR>When an American traveler is convinced that they are among the few of their group that behave in an acceptable manner, it must be difficult to overcome the barrier associated with the shame and embarrasment and interact with everyday Europeans.<BR><BR>The Europeans that I have encountered do not appear to make assumptions about my character on the basis of my nationality. It seems odd that my fellow American travelers are eager to do so.

Curious

SO-aside from having waiters and hotel staff who seemed disinterested,not rude..what exactly was wrong with the city of Paris?<BR>I hardly notice the waiters/hotel workers/salespeople when I travel,I am there for the city,museums,streets,parks.<BR>Did you go to see Paris? Or was it just another city to you?

Maurice

Heaven’s folks, Paris IS just “another city.” It is not Nirvana, it is not the Holy Grail, it is not Shangri-La.<BR>It’s just another big city with all of the big city problems. One difference being that they’re a little better about keeping their slum areas away from the major tourist centers, but yes, even Paris has slums. It is as though some of you folks are trying to start a new religion and a basic tenet being that when you die you’ll all go to the Louvre. <BR>

American

Judy<BR><BR>How do you know your not a "ugly American"?<BR><BR>I guess you act, dress and speak prefect.<BR><BR>God it must be nice to know all, be all and see all.<BR><BR>See ya later<BR><BR>PS<BR>I bet your weight is exactly prefect for you height.

xxxx

I concur with American's statement above. Judy, what puts you in any position to call someone an "Ugly American"?

Capo

Steve, I enjoyed your comments also, even though I think you indulged in quite a bit of exaggeration when you talked about the number of people you notice who consider Europe to be perfect, and that these "utopian tourists" feel that "Europe has no crime, Europeans can booze it up and smoke like chimneys and still never get cancer or heart disease, racism is non-existent in Europe, etc."<BR><BR>It's my opinion that few, if any, people truly see European countries with such perfectly rose-colored glasses. I really think -- for these people you refer to as "utopian tourists" -- it's more a matter of acknowledging the imperfections, but also not dwelling on them or letting them spoil your trip. <BR><BR>I mean, here's a specific example. Margie, in her original post, said that she felt that the Paris Metro was a major turn-off because it "stunk like a sewer, and it seemed that several times a day we would hear a commotion because someone was being or had just been ripped off." Now, while I'd never claim that the Metro's scent is going to give any perfume serious competition, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it obviously bothered Margie. And Margie very well have heard a commotion several times a day due to someone being ripped off (although I'm guessing she just assumed the commotions were due to someone being ripped off) but I never have, much less several times a day. Now, does this mean I don't think there's any crime in the Paris Metro, or that it smells like a rose? Hardly. But I'm not going to tell anyone who's going to Paris to avoid it because the smell is unbearable and it's crime-ridden.

Mal

"But I'm not going to tell anyone who's going to Paris to avoid it {the Metro} because the smell is unbearable and it's crime-ridden."<BR><BR>Wowsers, Capo, wisht somebody had told me that, because it really is both of those things. Two weeks ago Saturday, There were two purse snatchings and a pickpocket during the brief times I was in the Metro between noon and four. And yeah, in some places it is very near some sort of sewer vent and smells like an outhouse. Sewers and the gas created have long been a problem in Paris. There are also many places in the metropolitan area where they vent sewer gas. If you've missed it, good for you, but it is the source of many of the stories one hears about the literal stink of Paris. It is not a myth.

Capo

Mal, I've no doubt that the Paris Metro IS both of those things...to you.<BR><BR>As I noted before, we all perceive reality in different ways. <BR>

So?

Perhaps capo and steve could summarize their findings to ease the flow. Failing that, possibly their own site. I'm getting lost folling the threads of their contention. Just the meat, gentleman, if you please. Have you considered outline form perhaps, and please, dont be so nice. Spice things up a bit, and it'll be lots more fun. Otherwise, say something unexpected for once. Liven it up.

Ross

I have to agree with soem of Margie's comments. However, Paris is best described as an "acquired taste", especially if you're not a good traveller overall. Personally, I really like it there, and am planning to return this fall. One has to learn to roll with every city's idiosyncracies and quirks. There is never a "vacation utopia." Basically, I tend to keep my hopes high, and my expectations lower, and it usually balances out. I would go anywhere in Europe, any time.

Steve Mueller

<BR>Capo, it is strictly in this forum that I have encountered the attitudes that you summarized. In fact, the "boozing it up and smoking like a chimney" reference was inspired by something that was posted within the past week.

x

Message to American : I hope you aren't really American, because your short post was rife with misspellings and errors in grammar (some in the same word!) Even though we aren't English we are supposed to be able to write English.<BR><BR><BR>I posted this anonymously because I can't spell either! <BR>

E. Nuff Alredi

Alright, already, we’ve heard a weepy tail by someone who expected something she didn’t get, we’ve had a ton of bitchy replies by the Paris Is Elysium coterie, now can we put this whole bloody thing to bed and get on with our lives?<BR><BR>

American

Hey X<BR><BR>I'm just a small town southern boy who can't spell without spell check.<BR><BR>I only post under this name when I want to answer a really stupid person.<BR><BR>Just kidding, hahahhahahahhah