How much money would you need to retire - US to Italy?
Nov 30th, 2007, 07:35 AM
#61
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My wife and I plan to retire in Italy, at least for 2-3 month/year. I don't want to buy property over there or in any foreign country, too much hassle and I'd have to hire someone to manage or watch it while we're not there.
We've thought about leasing or renting a property for those few months. That way we could try different areas each year we go over.
By the time we get ready to do this, 6-7 years, we will have no parents living and we have no children. That leaves us pretty foot loose & fancy free to do this.
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We've thought about leasing or renting a property for those few months. That way we could try different areas each year we go over.
By the time we get ready to do this, 6-7 years, we will have no parents living and we have no children. That leaves us pretty foot loose & fancy free to do this.
[email protected]
Nov 30th, 2007, 12:42 PM
#63
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2Italy, that sounds like the best plan!
As a Brit living in Holland I know how difficult it is to adjust to living permanently in another country. And the older I get the harder it becomes in some ways. After nearly 25 years here the language is not a problem, but the lack of a shared history is - I can't say to friends do you remember ...because they don't, their childhoods, teenage years, were very different to mine.
If my sons and grandson were not here I would seriously consider retiring back to the UK, even though I no longer fit in there either.
Settling in a new country, especially where you have to speak another language is not easy at any adult age, and as I said the older you get the harder it is. I hate to think what my life here will be like if my OH dies before me.
Spending a few months every year in a country you love sounds a great idea, and will maintain the love affair, rather than turning it sour.
As a Brit living in Holland I know how difficult it is to adjust to living permanently in another country. And the older I get the harder it becomes in some ways. After nearly 25 years here the language is not a problem, but the lack of a shared history is - I can't say to friends do you remember ...because they don't, their childhoods, teenage years, were very different to mine.
If my sons and grandson were not here I would seriously consider retiring back to the UK, even though I no longer fit in there either.
Settling in a new country, especially where you have to speak another language is not easy at any adult age, and as I said the older you get the harder it is. I hate to think what my life here will be like if my OH dies before me.
Spending a few months every year in a country you love sounds a great idea, and will maintain the love affair, rather than turning it sour.
Nov 30th, 2007, 02:27 PM
#64
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<< Pugsly - 14k per month???? no one in Italy makes that kind of money (!) and will not any time in the near future. >>
Actually, I am pretty sure that !% of households in the US have a net worth of $6 million or more (I am not among them) - - that's more than 3 million americans...
...and so the number would be much larger that have a net worth of THREE million, and thus capable of sustaining a draw-out of 14,000 per month.
I even wonder if the fraction of Italians with substantial wealth is really smaller than the "top" fraction of Americans (admittedly, the actual numbers would be rather smaller... Italy is a smaller country).
Of course, I bet that it would be a very small fraction who are only 50 years old.
I think that I probably misjudged when I asserted that only "0.01% of Americans" would retire overseas because of family ties... I think that I failed to remember that more than "0.01%" have their strongest family ties OUTside the US (as others on this thread remind us)...
I'm now curious - - I wonder what fraction of those who contemplate retiring abroad (or anywhere more than 500 miles away) - - do they start making SERIOUS plans to do so, after age 55? 65? 75?
And I wonder how many of these who do retire abroad (or anywhere faraway) begin their "retirement" when they still have _earned income_ (not just investment income)... after all, increasingly, there are lots of people who can continue to "work" (and have earned income) and live ANYwhere, either by commuting, telecommuting or providing a service or making a product (writers, for example) that does not tie them down to a "workplace".
I do not work where I live (though it is usually less than a three hour drive), and one of my colleagues is (semi-)"retired" to Florida, but still works 7-10 days a week, commuting by (regular commercial) air travel. When I lived in Columbus (OH), I knew several people who worked several states away, typically three days a week.
That's quite a bit easier than working across an ocean, of course, but there must be some people who "retire" abroad, but continue to work part-time, maybe elsewhere in Europe... maybe elsewhere outside Europe.
I wouldn't do it permanently, but I would find it moderately appealing... to work in Abu Dhabi, and live in Europe at least for a year or two (maybe not so much now that I have cancer follow-up to think about).
Actually, I am pretty sure that !% of households in the US have a net worth of $6 million or more (I am not among them) - - that's more than 3 million americans...
...and so the number would be much larger that have a net worth of THREE million, and thus capable of sustaining a draw-out of 14,000 per month.
I even wonder if the fraction of Italians with substantial wealth is really smaller than the "top" fraction of Americans (admittedly, the actual numbers would be rather smaller... Italy is a smaller country).
Of course, I bet that it would be a very small fraction who are only 50 years old.
I think that I probably misjudged when I asserted that only "0.01% of Americans" would retire overseas because of family ties... I think that I failed to remember that more than "0.01%" have their strongest family ties OUTside the US (as others on this thread remind us)...
I'm now curious - - I wonder what fraction of those who contemplate retiring abroad (or anywhere more than 500 miles away) - - do they start making SERIOUS plans to do so, after age 55? 65? 75?
And I wonder how many of these who do retire abroad (or anywhere faraway) begin their "retirement" when they still have _earned income_ (not just investment income)... after all, increasingly, there are lots of people who can continue to "work" (and have earned income) and live ANYwhere, either by commuting, telecommuting or providing a service or making a product (writers, for example) that does not tie them down to a "workplace".
I do not work where I live (though it is usually less than a three hour drive), and one of my colleagues is (semi-)"retired" to Florida, but still works 7-10 days a week, commuting by (regular commercial) air travel. When I lived in Columbus (OH), I knew several people who worked several states away, typically three days a week.
That's quite a bit easier than working across an ocean, of course, but there must be some people who "retire" abroad, but continue to work part-time, maybe elsewhere in Europe... maybe elsewhere outside Europe.
I wouldn't do it permanently, but I would find it moderately appealing... to work in Abu Dhabi, and live in Europe at least for a year or two (maybe not so much now that I have cancer follow-up to think about).
Nov 30th, 2007, 04:21 PM
#65
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We have debated this option -- casually -- with respect to livng in France. We have concluded that we could live in France as transients but likely could never make France our permanent residence because:
1. It is very hard to STOP being a Canadian resident and liable for Canadian taxes -- I am referring to federal income tax, not provincial.
Basically, you cannot have so much as a Cdn bank account -- nor real property, yadda yadda.
2. We are fearful of holding property in France, where same-sex unions have heretofore not been recognized.
While we are legally married in Canada and also have wills naming each other as legatee, French law might award everything to my partner's niece or my siblings.
3. We can't bear the thought of not spending summers at our lakeside place -- which means an unoccupied, unprotected residence in France. And do we need those security headaches?
So we'll rent and visit at length but I fear we shall never "live" in Europe, as other friends have done....
PS: I have the feeling that living in France could actually cost us less than what we pay now to live in Canada: everything there seems so reasonable, in the sense that there is much that is costly but almost always there is a modestly priced option available: hotels, meals, clothes, food.....
1. It is very hard to STOP being a Canadian resident and liable for Canadian taxes -- I am referring to federal income tax, not provincial.
Basically, you cannot have so much as a Cdn bank account -- nor real property, yadda yadda.
2. We are fearful of holding property in France, where same-sex unions have heretofore not been recognized.
While we are legally married in Canada and also have wills naming each other as legatee, French law might award everything to my partner's niece or my siblings.
3. We can't bear the thought of not spending summers at our lakeside place -- which means an unoccupied, unprotected residence in France. And do we need those security headaches?
So we'll rent and visit at length but I fear we shall never "live" in Europe, as other friends have done....
PS: I have the feeling that living in France could actually cost us less than what we pay now to live in Canada: everything there seems so reasonable, in the sense that there is much that is costly but almost always there is a modestly priced option available: hotels, meals, clothes, food.....
Dec 1st, 2007, 04:19 AM
#66
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Hi ek,
>Average 2006 price for apartment in Paris:....
Average London price: ...
Averages don't work.
You have to compare size and amenities.
Check the real estate sites for an apt of a certain size, with elevator, with kitchen appliances, with central HVAC, with trash collection, with maintenance service.
Then check for maintenance fees, property taxes, etc.
You also have to consider location, eg, overlooking Central Park vs overlooking Jardin Luxembourg.
You won't find that one in pParis for only $320K, not even 320Ek.
Here are some numbers for Paris from my 2005 visit:
Some Real Estate notes garnered from window shopping:
266 sq meters, top floor near D'Orsay Museum 2.5 Million E.
Two rms, 1st flr w/kitchen near D'Orsay 1.4 Million E.
50 sq m view of Jardin Luxembourg 0.5 Million E.
50 sq m in the 5th, 6th floor 0.5 Million E.
Parking space near St. Sulpice church 45000 E.
>Average 2006 price for apartment in Paris:....
Average London price: ...
Averages don't work.
You have to compare size and amenities.
Check the real estate sites for an apt of a certain size, with elevator, with kitchen appliances, with central HVAC, with trash collection, with maintenance service.
Then check for maintenance fees, property taxes, etc.
You also have to consider location, eg, overlooking Central Park vs overlooking Jardin Luxembourg.
You won't find that one in pParis for only $320K, not even 320Ek.
Here are some numbers for Paris from my 2005 visit:
Some Real Estate notes garnered from window shopping:
266 sq meters, top floor near D'Orsay Museum 2.5 Million E.
Two rms, 1st flr w/kitchen near D'Orsay 1.4 Million E.
50 sq m view of Jardin Luxembourg 0.5 Million E.
50 sq m in the 5th, 6th floor 0.5 Million E.
Parking space near St. Sulpice church 45000 E.
Dec 1st, 2007, 04:33 AM
#68
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Hi all,
Not sure my post will be relevant, but it might add another dimension to this discussion on retirement abroad.
I'm one who's doing it.
I've been dreaming about it for all of my life (was an expat from birth to teen-ager, then occasionally as an adult with the US Army). Never quite felt comfortable in CONUS.
I served 20 years in the military, then took care of my family as each one got ill and passed. So, at 50 years old, I was left without immediate family (no spouse or kids) but with a good pension and worldwide medical coverage. Hmmmm . . . what to do, what to do???
I spent some time in apartments in Europe to see what the lifestyle would be like and, yes, it actually surpassed my expectations. So I'm moving ahead with my plan. I'm planning to put my condo on the market in the spring. When it sells, I'll put most of my stuff in storage and mail over 2-3 boxes of clothes -- enough to last a year -- and my bike. I'll rent a vacation apartment for a month, and while there, I'll look for a year-long rental. If the year goes well, then I'll look for an apartment to buy.
I've contacted the German consulate and have instructions to be legal during my stay.
So, it's taken me about two years to get this far in the planning and will probably take me another year in the rental before I make the move permanent. I'm 52 yo now.
Anyway, that's one story.
s
Not sure my post will be relevant, but it might add another dimension to this discussion on retirement abroad.
I'm one who's doing it.
I've been dreaming about it for all of my life (was an expat from birth to teen-ager, then occasionally as an adult with the US Army). Never quite felt comfortable in CONUS.
I served 20 years in the military, then took care of my family as each one got ill and passed. So, at 50 years old, I was left without immediate family (no spouse or kids) but with a good pension and worldwide medical coverage. Hmmmm . . . what to do, what to do???
I spent some time in apartments in Europe to see what the lifestyle would be like and, yes, it actually surpassed my expectations. So I'm moving ahead with my plan. I'm planning to put my condo on the market in the spring. When it sells, I'll put most of my stuff in storage and mail over 2-3 boxes of clothes -- enough to last a year -- and my bike. I'll rent a vacation apartment for a month, and while there, I'll look for a year-long rental. If the year goes well, then I'll look for an apartment to buy.
I've contacted the German consulate and have instructions to be legal during my stay.
So, it's taken me about two years to get this far in the planning and will probably take me another year in the rental before I make the move permanent. I'm 52 yo now.
Anyway, that's one story.
s
Dec 1st, 2007, 04:34 AM
#69
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PS:
>50 sq m view of Jardin Luxembourg 0.5 Million E.
That one was for sale in 2001 for only 250,000 dollars.
My Lady Wife and I discussed it, but she was firmly against it.
Now, whenever she mentions eBay at $25 or Google at $80 (neither of which I bought), I mention Paris real estate.
>50 sq m view of Jardin Luxembourg 0.5 Million E.
That one was for sale in 2001 for only 250,000 dollars.
My Lady Wife and I discussed it, but she was firmly against it.
Now, whenever she mentions eBay at $25 or Google at $80 (neither of which I bought), I mention Paris real estate.
Dec 1st, 2007, 04:55 AM
#70
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Ira throwing out figures STILL does not tell me why you think I would have to pay 20% more! Let's forget the price of the apartment for a moment..(for every high price you throw out here I can give you an equally high one for NYC)
Let's assume the housing is a wash..
let's go to your other assertions that utilities, vehicle, food, whatever, are going to cost me 20% more in Italy than in the US...were you guessing? Or were you thinking only of your own costs, Georgian small town vs Rome, for example...???
Let's assume the housing is a wash..
let's go to your other assertions that utilities, vehicle, food, whatever, are going to cost me 20% more in Italy than in the US...were you guessing? Or were you thinking only of your own costs, Georgian small town vs Rome, for example...???
Dec 1st, 2007, 05:04 AM
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Although I would like to return to the original subject, which is Italy, I have to say that the parking space Ira referenced above, in Paris, is a bargain compared to New York! The vast majority of people who pay for parking here do so on a monthly basis, but there are also spaces available for purchase. One in Tribeca that a friend looked at was priced at 120,000$!!!
As I said several times above, you cannot just apply an arbitrary figure to the US vs Italy housing cost issue.
As I said several times above, you cannot just apply an arbitrary figure to the US vs Italy housing cost issue.
Dec 1st, 2007, 08:57 AM
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Rex - I should clarify about the 14k comment...I didn't mean to imply there are not plenty of people who have that kind of income monthly...worldwide...just wanted to point out that you, in no way, would NEED that amount to live like a local in Italy ;-)
Dec 1st, 2007, 09:19 AM
#74
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Hi ek,
> Let's assume the housing is a wash..
That is an invalid assumption.
You have to specify what you want and where you want it. Then you look up the price.
>Georgian small town vs Rome, for example...?
Read my lips carefully, "I am comparing like to like".
Madison, GA vs Melfi, Basilicata.
NYC vs Rome.
>[A parking space]...in Tribeca that a friend looked at was priced at 120,000$!!!
>throwing out figures STILL does not tell me why you think I would have to pay 20% more!
Nor does it tell me why you think that you would not.
Is Tribeca a low rent neighborhood?
Please ek, I gave the OP an estimate based on what I have seen, heard and read. If you think that I am wrong provide data to show that I am wrong.
Hi CDC,
Thank you for the info on property tax. That could be important for people moving from areas with high taxes.
> Let's assume the housing is a wash..
That is an invalid assumption.
You have to specify what you want and where you want it. Then you look up the price.
>Georgian small town vs Rome, for example...?
Read my lips carefully, "I am comparing like to like".
Madison, GA vs Melfi, Basilicata.
NYC vs Rome.
>[A parking space]...in Tribeca that a friend looked at was priced at 120,000$!!!
>throwing out figures STILL does not tell me why you think I would have to pay 20% more!
Nor does it tell me why you think that you would not.
Is Tribeca a low rent neighborhood?
Please ek, I gave the OP an estimate based on what I have seen, heard and read. If you think that I am wrong provide data to show that I am wrong.
Hi CDC,
Thank you for the info on property tax. That could be important for people moving from areas with high taxes.
Dec 1st, 2007, 10:13 AM
#75
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Ira: Just provide me with some kind of information that shows me that I will have to pay 20% more over and above the price of the euro, if I relocate to Rome.
Show me where you are getting figures to back up your statement that the price of a car, heating, etc etc is higher in Rome than it is in New York City. Do I sound like a broken record here??
Show me anything that shows that YOU would have to pay 20% more for above if you moved to a town (you choose) comparable to your own.
Or tell me that your 20% is a guess!
Show me where you are getting figures to back up your statement that the price of a car, heating, etc etc is higher in Rome than it is in New York City. Do I sound like a broken record here??
Show me anything that shows that YOU would have to pay 20% more for above if you moved to a town (you choose) comparable to your own.
Or tell me that your 20% is a guess!
Dec 29th, 2013, 04:54 PM
#78
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How does it work for a military (reserve) retiree earning military retirement, social security, and a state retirement - in terms of social security, income and health insurance? (I would not be working)
