travel2live2

Good observations. I have actually already lived in Europe and loved it so much. To me it is more than weather or beauty or culture or whatever. We are also being as realistic as we possibly can - we know it would have its share of hardships. It would not be perfect by any stretch. We have friends who have relocated and the only regret they have is not doing it when they were younger!

We do not have children but relocating to Europe would certainly be a huge issue if we did! We do, however, have families in Canada. That is the biggest thing for us. It would be very, very difficult to permanently move for that reason alone. However, they all fly often (as do we) so at least visiting would be manageable to a certain extent. A sister of mine and her family is planning to move back to Europe (used to live in Scotland) as well.

As it stands now, it is our plan to relocate to Europe BUT nothing in life is certain. That plan could definitely change. It is just a goal we are working towards. If it works to live half the year here and half there, so be it.

travelgirl2

travel2live2 - If you retire at age 50 with $2 million, how much do you figure that gives you to spend each year for the rest of your life?

JoyC

"I am a European citizen (as well as American),...."

What is a "European" citizen??

rex

<< If you retire at age 50 with $2 million, how much do you figure that gives you to spend each year for the rest of your life? >>

There are annuity tables that do the math for these kinds of present value/future value/draw-out questions, or its pretty easy to set up on a spreadsheet.

Two million dollars would allow withdrawal of $128,000 per year and not run out for 48 years, if invested at 6% - - of course, $128,000 might only buy one-fifth as much, 48 years from now.

A withdrawal of $200,000 per year will burn through it much faster - - in about 16 years (at the same 6% investment rate).

CasaDelCipresso

Joy- it means I have an EU passport and can live and work in any EU country ithout visa issues. It also means I have access to other health care options. On a more personal note, it means that more than half of my family lives MUCH closer to Italy than to the US (!) and that would certainly be a big factor in my own plans for retirement.
(gotta run - will wirte mnore later)

ekscrunchy

I would like to hear more about the health insurance question I posted above.

If I spent half the year overseas but kept the US as my primary residence, would my US health insurance cover me during my time abroad?

kybourbon

ekscrunchy - Maybe, maybe not. Companies are changing their insurance plans yearly to save money. My insurance eliminated coverage out of the country two years ago.

CasaDelCipresso

I'm SURE the expattalk forum would be more helpful with the complicated insurance issue - check them out

As far as choosing to retire in another country...I would think that's coorrect...who would made that kind of life choice without considering everything?

Everyone has very personal reasons for moving to Italy to retire (or anywhere else for that matter!) and I do agree...living there is so very different from wintering there! However, the OP had asked about financial issues...not personal, cultural, and emotional ones.

I think many would agree that if your dream is to live/retire in Italy, you will do your due diligence and figure out if this is something that will, realisticallly, work for you and that it is something you will be happy with - or be willing to take the chance to make a temp. move and see what happens

I happen to thin it MUCH easier and more realistic to retire in Italy than to pick up and move there duing working years - it just makes more financial sense (to me) to take advantage of the much higher saleries here in the US (even WITH the $$-Euro conversion) and make the move when you are financial secure - no matter what age.

ira

>Our financial advisor and my husband and I figured that we will need just under $2 M to do this....Our living expenses and needs may be simpler than many others. <

You should be able to get between $1 and $120k pa from a $2M investment. Even I bonds are yielding 4.3%.

To me, a simple life is about $50K pa. Some might go even lower.

Hi ek,

>the cost of living for some of us would not be anything close to 20 % higher, after figuring in the price of euro vs dollar, should we decide to decamp for Italy someday. <

Whenever we go to Europe, we check out the real estate agencies, comparison shop for food, clothes, etc in the towns we visit.

I said:
"Determine how much you would need to retire on in the US.

Convert to Euro.

Add 20% to account for higher costs of housing, utilities and transportation".

Do you claim that equivalent housing, utilities and a car will not be 20% higher in Italy than in the US?

Now, if you wish to reduce your level of living by renting a 1 bdrm-walk up flat w/o AC, give up the car and, thereby, live in Italy for less than in the US, you are correct.

However, that is not what I said.

Hi CDC,

I chose Melfi because it is a fairly small town in Basilicata, although larger than Madison, GA.

>you can easily find a small, 100sq meter (about) home for about
100euros ...

Did you leave out some zeros, or is that a monthly rental rate?

>In a historic property, it runs about 15k to install (gas heat with radiators in each room) ...

Well that adds 10% to my 150k house.

Thanks for the info. I will check the numbers.

CasaDelCipresso

hahahahaha - yes...left out a few zeros there ;-) sorry!! trying (as usual) to do too many things at one time (ok...that...and my really horrible typing!) just got excited that someone else has ever even heard of Melfi ;-)

CasaDelCipresso

p.s. BTW - I am in NO WAY any sort of real estate expert...not even close(!) so take my numbers with a grain of salt - and look things up - they are only based on my purchase and things I've looked at casully in the area...as for being 20% more than here...well...not where I live...and perhaps I could find something for those prices many places in the US too (and with a simmilar cost of living - my cost in Campania is still lower than in the NY area even with the $$-Euro exchange)...but I don't want to live there I prefer Italy to many of the bargin priced locations in the US - but a totally personal preference and I'm sure it's not for everyone!

CasaDelCipresso

Ira- if you would like to email me, I'd be happy to send you a link to a local real estate agent - don't want to post the info here (long story). She is located about 30 minutes from Melfi (I cannot, however, reccomend her as someone I would use for a purchase if anyone is serious)

ekscrunchy

Sorry, Ira, I do not see where you are getting the figures that living in Italy will cost me 20% more for housing, utilities, and transportation! Where on earth are you getting that figure? From looking at ads in real estate windows???? Have you actually researched this or are you guessing?

Let's see, people here who garage a car pay on average $400-$500 a month for the garage. RENT for a market-rate Manhattan 2-bedroom apartment is about $4,000-$6,000 per month for something moderately nice. Purchase price for same, I would guess in the range of 1.3 million dollars. Shall I go on....???? Dinner in average restaurant for two people with wine, $100 if you order carefully.

No doubt these figures do not apply to those living in small cities or rural areas...but please, do some real research before you throw out figures which are meaningless to many of us..

Pugsly

Rex - As I said in an earlier follow up post, "retire" was probably not the right word given what I suppose most people consider it to mean. To me, retire simply means selling my business and not having a regular daily work routine. Also, while I have siblings, we are not close and once my parents are gone I will not have any close family ties in the US. However, I did say that I would maintain a small place in the US and essentially just shift from spending most of my time in the US to most of my time in Italy.

Nonetheless, I figure that at age 50 (if you plan to live to 85), you would need $3,000,000 earning 7% to allow you to spend $14,000 per month considering annual inflation of 2.5%.

CasaDelCipresso

Ira - went and looked it up for ya...quote I have for central A/C is 2000 euro for a small place (i.e. 50-80 sq meters) - a larger home would run around 3000-4000 I would think...isn't that around what I'd pay in the US?? (no clue again...I do not have AC in my home in the US nor Italy)

One thing no one has metioned is that you tend to get out of the "rat race" a bit when you live in Italy - and really just spend less on "stuff"...saleries are VERY, very low and locals live on very tight budgets (anywhere in the country - not just the south) - that's what I've found anyway. (and international travel costs go WAY down if you tend to travel within Europe)

ira

Hi CDC,

Thanks for the follow up.

>...my cost in Campania is still lower than in the NY area...

I should hope so.

EK,

>RENT for a market-rate Manhattan 2-bedroom apartment is about $4,000-$6,000 per month .... please, do some real research before you throw out figures which are meaningless to many of us.

How many of "us" live in Manhattan?

For goodness sake, will you please stop comparing Rolls Royces to Volkswagens?

Of course, you can live more cheaply in Melfi than in Manhattan.

You can live almost anywhere in the world for less than in Manhattan.

I shall reiterate. I am comparing like to like.

You are not.

CasaDelCipresso

Pugsly - 14k per month???? no one in Italy makes that kind of money (!) and will not any time in the near future.(ok...I'm sure there are few VERY rare examples in Rome or Milan)very few would make that sort of money in Europe in general - I don't know the statistics, but we have looked at jobs ;-) MAYBE a few in London if you are a trader...but not a common budget at all.

does anyone know the average household income? I would bet it is more like 2000 Euros for people living in BIG cities and probably not even half of that for people living in the southern countryside. (that said, most people would own their homes and not be paying for a mortgage)

ekscrunchy

Ira:

I am not foolish enough to compare living in Manhattan to living in Melfi. Like to like. So now tell me if I would have to pay 20% more after the cost of the euro to live in Rome.. Somehow I do not think so...

What I wrote was that rather than throw out figures that have no relevance to some of us, you qualify your statement. You wrote in your initial post here, that one should add 20% to costs after figuring in the exchange rate. I responded by saying that that figure has no basis in fact for many of us and I questioned how you came up with that figure.

ekscrunchy

Just for fun, here is the statistic I found in a quick search; not Italy but still interesting:

Average 2006 price for apartment in Paris: $320,000

Average Manhattan sale price first quarter of 2007:
$745,000

Average London price: $675,000, first quarter of 2007

Pugsly

Hi Casa...I was also considering on the spending the cost to maintain a small place in the US