How highly would you prioritize Portugal?
Dec 9th, 2014, 07:05 AM
#61
Dickie, Finland, very different to Sweden, very solid people, far more educated with a stubborn streak a mile wide and a genuine warmth for all visitors. Especially nice up to and above the Artic circle
Seville is good but many towns in Portugal are as interesting with better wild life and a calmer people.
Serbia; tick
Seville is good but many towns in Portugal are as interesting with better wild life and a calmer people.
Serbia; tick
Dec 9th, 2014, 07:29 AM
#62
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Spices were not unknown in Europe before 15th century but pepper was more expensive than gold and only a few persons (royals and such) have ever tasted that. The once famous Silk road ended in Venice after a very long chain of value from China to Europe.
Places like China (Marco Polo) and India were visited by merchants and adventurers from time to time. Alexander the Great and the Romans went deep into the Asian continent. None in the above was invented or discovered by the Portuguese, since it was common knowledge of educated people in Europe long before Portugal ever existed. Portugal only took advantage from being the 1st nation able to trade in a global basis.
However when Vasco da Gama rounded the southern tip of Africa and arrived in Lisbon in the year of 1499 with 3 ships loaded with spices, it marked the beginning of the turn to 16th century revolution since for the 1st time common people was able to purchase goods that previously existed only in small amounts.
During 50 years Lisbon was the busiest city in Europe with merchants for all over doing their trades. Jeronimos monastery and Belem Tower are contemporary of these events.
In the middle of 16th century Portugal did it's Crassus (fatal) mistake which is the introduction of Inquisition. The thinking tank left the country, taking large amounts of money with them to more favorable places like Amsterdam. The above referred Baruch Espinoza is Dutch born, son of parents from Vidigueira, Alentejo. With Espinoza parents, many doctors, scientists and crafstmen of all kinds left the country. This influx made Holland the next global sea based empire.
After that, Britain ruled the waves to built the 3rd sea based empire. The world had to wait to the end of WWII to see the raise of another empire of global reach similar to those three referred previously.
Spain focused very much in the Americas (Inca Empire) and no other European countries had contributions to the expansion of European power and ways of thinking of similar extent as Portuguese, Dutch and Brits.
The Dutch had to fight in several parts of the world since the Portuguese arrived 1st and took the advantageous points. After a non-successful war with the Portuguese in Brazilian North-East, Dutch climbed in the map and founded New Amsterdam (aka New York City).
In the process where civilizations were for the 1st time put face to face (and not individuals like previously) some challenges were brought to evidence, some of which remain in our times.
Feel free to criticize at will, but this is my vision and the way I read Sandralists (2nd or 3rd in the list) post which, in my opinion, started the thread.
Places like China (Marco Polo) and India were visited by merchants and adventurers from time to time. Alexander the Great and the Romans went deep into the Asian continent. None in the above was invented or discovered by the Portuguese, since it was common knowledge of educated people in Europe long before Portugal ever existed. Portugal only took advantage from being the 1st nation able to trade in a global basis.
However when Vasco da Gama rounded the southern tip of Africa and arrived in Lisbon in the year of 1499 with 3 ships loaded with spices, it marked the beginning of the turn to 16th century revolution since for the 1st time common people was able to purchase goods that previously existed only in small amounts.
During 50 years Lisbon was the busiest city in Europe with merchants for all over doing their trades. Jeronimos monastery and Belem Tower are contemporary of these events.
In the middle of 16th century Portugal did it's Crassus (fatal) mistake which is the introduction of Inquisition. The thinking tank left the country, taking large amounts of money with them to more favorable places like Amsterdam. The above referred Baruch Espinoza is Dutch born, son of parents from Vidigueira, Alentejo. With Espinoza parents, many doctors, scientists and crafstmen of all kinds left the country. This influx made Holland the next global sea based empire.
After that, Britain ruled the waves to built the 3rd sea based empire. The world had to wait to the end of WWII to see the raise of another empire of global reach similar to those three referred previously.
Spain focused very much in the Americas (Inca Empire) and no other European countries had contributions to the expansion of European power and ways of thinking of similar extent as Portuguese, Dutch and Brits.
The Dutch had to fight in several parts of the world since the Portuguese arrived 1st and took the advantageous points. After a non-successful war with the Portuguese in Brazilian North-East, Dutch climbed in the map and founded New Amsterdam (aka New York City).
In the process where civilizations were for the 1st time put face to face (and not individuals like previously) some challenges were brought to evidence, some of which remain in our times.
Feel free to criticize at will, but this is my vision and the way I read Sandralists (2nd or 3rd in the list) post which, in my opinion, started the thread.
Dec 9th, 2014, 07:42 AM
#63
latedaytraveler:
Yes Queluz Palace is about 8 miles from Lisbon.
This is where Maria I was as she descended into madness.
Her eldest son finally had to take her to Brazil where she died.
She is also the same Maria who despised Pombal, the Marquis of Pombal was the fellow who single handed planned the rebuilding of Lisbon after the quake
In disgrace he moved to the town of Pombal, a town named after him and is just before Coimbra.
-----
I liked Helsinki,I thought the place and the people were great.
I am glad I went to Serbia, Bulgaria and Croatia.
I got to see and hear about both sides of the conflict.
I had a terrific tour guide who gave history lectures at the University in Washington DC.
-----
Yes Queluz Palace is about 8 miles from Lisbon.
This is where Maria I was as she descended into madness.
Her eldest son finally had to take her to Brazil where she died.
She is also the same Maria who despised Pombal, the Marquis of Pombal was the fellow who single handed planned the rebuilding of Lisbon after the quake
In disgrace he moved to the town of Pombal, a town named after him and is just before Coimbra.
-----
I liked Helsinki,I thought the place and the people were great.
I am glad I went to Serbia, Bulgaria and Croatia.
I got to see and hear about both sides of the conflict.
I had a terrific tour guide who gave history lectures at the University in Washington DC.
-----
Dec 9th, 2014, 09:10 AM
#64
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Most Dutch would have an issue with the idea that exiled Portuguese Jews " made Holland the next
global sea based empire"
"The Dutch navy has a long history. It was involved in many wars against other European powers since the late 16th century, initially for independence against Spain in European waters, later for shipping lanes, trade and colonies in many parts of the world, notably in four Anglo-Dutch wars against England"
One hopes that we can agree that Rembrandt and Vermeer were actually Dutch.
global sea based empire"
"The Dutch navy has a long history. It was involved in many wars against other European powers since the late 16th century, initially for independence against Spain in European waters, later for shipping lanes, trade and colonies in many parts of the world, notably in four Anglo-Dutch wars against England"
One hopes that we can agree that Rembrandt and Vermeer were actually Dutch.
Dec 9th, 2014, 09:34 AM
#66
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One of the problems with the Internet and travel boards, is that people are overly sensitive and immediately think that any negative fact or datum is a complete condemnation of a subject.
It is called balance. Is called being knowledgeable.
I did not read one person state that they would not visit or re-visit Portugal because of its past. But since little is known about Portugal in the US and its tourism is dwarfed by Spain, Italy, France, UK, and The Netherlands, any thing that borders on criticism, even when accurate, is considered a fatal blow.
It is called balance. Is called being knowledgeable.
I did not read one person state that they would not visit or re-visit Portugal because of its past. But since little is known about Portugal in the US and its tourism is dwarfed by Spain, Italy, France, UK, and The Netherlands, any thing that borders on criticism, even when accurate, is considered a fatal blow.
Dec 9th, 2014, 01:16 PM
#68
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"It's surprising that so many put down Portugal based on it's ancient history".
Not true , just discussing different interpretations of its history and Portugal's contribution to the
European culture.
Each time one says something less than positive about a village, town, city, country etc, it is almost certain one of the " offended" poster will say:
"I guess that leaves it less-crowded for those of us who love it."
Oh, brother.
Not true , just discussing different interpretations of its history and Portugal's contribution to the
European culture.
Each time one says something less than positive about a village, town, city, country etc, it is almost certain one of the " offended" poster will say:
"I guess that leaves it less-crowded for those of us who love it."
Oh, brother.
Dec 9th, 2014, 02:05 PM
#69
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IMHO, worth to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery
Dec 9th, 2014, 07:02 PM
#74
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That is just not true Taber. When you visit a country it is culmination of all that preceded it. Some have visible monuments, others have a language, national characteristics, cuisine, culture, traditions, and customs.
When you visit a country what do you look for?
When you visit a country what do you look for?
Dec 9th, 2014, 07:26 PM
#75
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True. I love the difference in cultures and geography. That's why we travel, anyway.
I'm referring to the OP's question, in saying that a region's history doesn't necessarily dissuade me from visiting. It colors the experience, but doesn't really determine how we prioritize a place.
Except in the case of wanting to visit specific war sites, but that's not the OP's question.
I'm referring to the OP's question, in saying that a region's history doesn't necessarily dissuade me from visiting. It colors the experience, but doesn't really determine how we prioritize a place.
Except in the case of wanting to visit specific war sites, but that's not the OP's question.
Dec 9th, 2014, 11:13 PM
#77
It is important to understand the driving forces behind a country when visiting it.
Imagine USA, home of torture, Ferguson and G Bush. Who would of thought of visiting such a country.
Don't shoot I surrender.
Imagine USA, home of torture, Ferguson and G Bush. Who would of thought of visiting such a country.
Don't shoot I surrender.
Dec 10th, 2014, 01:57 AM
#78
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This was a nice discussion.
When reading I saw a sentence that I felt meaningless (I still do, maybe I'm wrong but it´s my opinion) and tried to give different points of view.
Fodors' readers are intelligent persons able to read different visions of the same subject and extract their own conclusions.
When reading I saw a sentence that I felt meaningless (I still do, maybe I'm wrong but it´s my opinion) and tried to give different points of view.
Fodors' readers are intelligent persons able to read different visions of the same subject and extract their own conclusions.
Dec 10th, 2014, 05:26 AM
#79
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There is an interesting example in Spain, The Valley of The Fallen (Valle de los Caídos)where knowing its history may make a difference to a tourist. There is much controversy surrounding this monument including the use of slave labor, who and how people are buried there, and the entombment of Franco himself. Some might not care, others may not want to visit such a place, thus the information could be important.
Dec 10th, 2014, 11:06 AM
#80
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"Imagine USA, home of torture, Ferguson and G Bush. Who would of thought of visiting such a country."
If one was choosing a destination based on the historical sins, how many travellers would visit Germany and other European countries whose population joined Hitler''s willing executioners?
China, Russia, Cambodia , Japan, Chile, Argentina.....??? Take your pick.
For some, travel is about beaches , food , relaxation . For others, it is about art, history , architecture..
I suspect it is a bit of both for the.majority
If one was choosing a destination based on the historical sins, how many travellers would visit Germany and other European countries whose population joined Hitler''s willing executioners?
China, Russia, Cambodia , Japan, Chile, Argentina.....??? Take your pick.
For some, travel is about beaches , food , relaxation . For others, it is about art, history , architecture..
I suspect it is a bit of both for the.majority
