Hostile treatment in Italy
Aug 26th, 2004, 05:34 AM
#41
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Tedgale,
I'm confused with your statement:
Now if only the Americans didn't annex the following (Canadian) celebrities as their own: Peter Jennings, Matthew Perry, Brendan Fraser, Frank Gehry, Alex Trebek, Mike Myers, Celine Dion, Avril Lavigne, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young,etc -- all the way back to Mary Pickford, Louis B. Mayer, Walter Pidgeon, Glenn Ford, Deanna Durbin, Norma Shearer and the late lamented Fay Wray....
I assume that Canadians are Americans too. Certainly have never considered Canadians US citizens. Is this truly a perception of the Canadian majority?
I'm confused with your statement:
Now if only the Americans didn't annex the following (Canadian) celebrities as their own: Peter Jennings, Matthew Perry, Brendan Fraser, Frank Gehry, Alex Trebek, Mike Myers, Celine Dion, Avril Lavigne, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young,etc -- all the way back to Mary Pickford, Louis B. Mayer, Walter Pidgeon, Glenn Ford, Deanna Durbin, Norma Shearer and the late lamented Fay Wray....
I assume that Canadians are Americans too. Certainly have never considered Canadians US citizens. Is this truly a perception of the Canadian majority?
Aug 26th, 2004, 05:50 AM
#42
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A mob is a mob, anywhere, and it is best to avoid them. People in the mob will do things that they would not do on their own, and the people with them will try to top their acts.
I wouldn't avoid Italy because of the occasional mob; I will avoid NYC during the upcoming convention.
I wouldn't avoid Italy because of the occasional mob; I will avoid NYC during the upcoming convention.
Aug 26th, 2004, 05:55 AM
#43
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I thank each of you for your thoughtful (and often heated) responses to my email. I too was very surprised that this had happened to my colleague's friend but, because I had not traveled in Europe since 2000, wasn't sure if attitudes towards Americans had changed dramatically in the past few years given all that has happened. I am darn proud to be American and would never deny my allegiance to my country.
I simply posted the email to see if perhaps this was a more common experience (and I have no reason at all to doubt its source though I will press for a few more details later today)than I had thought.
Thanks for all of your insight. I am glad to hear that traveling in Italy is just as wonderful as it has always been and I remain very excited about my trip in a few weeks.
I simply posted the email to see if perhaps this was a more common experience (and I have no reason at all to doubt its source though I will press for a few more details later today)than I had thought.
Thanks for all of your insight. I am glad to hear that traveling in Italy is just as wonderful as it has always been and I remain very excited about my trip in a few weeks.
Aug 26th, 2004, 07:08 PM
#44
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I agree this is not a political website but a travel one!
However, with that said, I must say I am very disappointed to hear so many "so called" Americans want to deny or "not look like an American" What does an American look like anyways? America is nothing more than a melting pot of the rest of the world. Personally when I travel I'm proud to be a humble, friendly, curious American who loves to meet new people and experience new cultures. I could never deny what I feel very lucky to be....an American..... no matter how hostile the situation.
With that said, I'm done with the politics and back to surfing the travel topics.
Sorry to vent but this thread has gone long enough.
gt
However, with that said, I must say I am very disappointed to hear so many "so called" Americans want to deny or "not look like an American" What does an American look like anyways? America is nothing more than a melting pot of the rest of the world. Personally when I travel I'm proud to be a humble, friendly, curious American who loves to meet new people and experience new cultures. I could never deny what I feel very lucky to be....an American..... no matter how hostile the situation.
With that said, I'm done with the politics and back to surfing the travel topics.
Sorry to vent but this thread has gone long enough.
gt
Aug 27th, 2004, 03:49 AM
#46
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Ah, tedgale, that old Canadian inferiority complex reasserting itself again, eh?
To dismiss, as some posters here appear to, the OP's story out of hand as something that would be practically impossible in Italy (or other countries about which this topic has come up before) is simply being naive. There really are jerks in every country, and there are documented instances of Americans and other nationalities being harassed.
Fortunately, it is a rare occurance, about as rare as tourists from other countries being threatened by people in the USA.
Two years ago in Germany, we had a couple of unpleasant experiences with school-age children who were obviously spouting prejudiced anti-American rantings they'd heard from their parents--and they had been drinking, which might have had something to do with it.
In 50 years of travel, these were the only anti-American outbursts that I've experienced--and I've traveled to many places where the potential certainly existed. But it does happen, however rarely.
To dismiss, as some posters here appear to, the OP's story out of hand as something that would be practically impossible in Italy (or other countries about which this topic has come up before) is simply being naive. There really are jerks in every country, and there are documented instances of Americans and other nationalities being harassed.
Fortunately, it is a rare occurance, about as rare as tourists from other countries being threatened by people in the USA.
Two years ago in Germany, we had a couple of unpleasant experiences with school-age children who were obviously spouting prejudiced anti-American rantings they'd heard from their parents--and they had been drinking, which might have had something to do with it.
In 50 years of travel, these were the only anti-American outbursts that I've experienced--and I've traveled to many places where the potential certainly existed. But it does happen, however rarely.
Aug 27th, 2004, 07:20 AM
#48
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Of course it could have happened, some of you have blinders on when it comes to Italy. You can't say there cant be a group of people who would approach Americans.
Don't so many of you warn against even visiting Naples? Why? How about a soccer game? Do you think they don't get riled up when drinking? You can get a group of loud mouths showing off to each other in any country in the world.
Don't so many of you warn against even visiting Naples? Why? How about a soccer game? Do you think they don't get riled up when drinking? You can get a group of loud mouths showing off to each other in any country in the world.
Aug 27th, 2004, 12:51 PM
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It's not because all "urban legends" refer to a friend of a friend that everything that happened to a friend of a friend is an urban legend.
Sure, the story might have been made up, or actually happened to a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend and became more dramatic each time it was told, but it can also be true. I can certainly imagine a group (in particular a group of teens...these can be dreadful) deciding out of the blues to insult a random group of other people belonging to any category deemed different. The only a requirement is some excited jerk, and some "mob mentality" and "side with your pals" feelings.
I wouldn't worry about such a thing even if it were proven it actually happened. Random bad things happen, everywhere, it a given, but there's no
standing tradition of italian mobs hanging american tourists at lamp posts I'm aware of.
Sure, the story might have been made up, or actually happened to a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend and became more dramatic each time it was told, but it can also be true. I can certainly imagine a group (in particular a group of teens...these can be dreadful) deciding out of the blues to insult a random group of other people belonging to any category deemed different. The only a requirement is some excited jerk, and some "mob mentality" and "side with your pals" feelings.
I wouldn't worry about such a thing even if it were proven it actually happened. Random bad things happen, everywhere, it a given, but there's no
standing tradition of italian mobs hanging american tourists at lamp posts I'm aware of.
Aug 27th, 2004, 01:14 PM
#51
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Sure, the original post MIGHT be a troll. However,f anyone says anything despairing on this board about any country, particularly Italy or France, it is immediatly going to be questioned, put down, and/or labeled "troll".
Americans are all too eager to blame themselves, or rather their fellow countrymen for anything and everything at home and abroad.
Canadians will blast us about who we've "annexed," although to my knowledge every person listed came to the U.S. and liked it enough to not only stay but to become citizens. (If whining ever becomes an Olympic sport, Canada is assured of gold...)
Any American cowardly enough to wear a maple leaf or any other symbol of a country other than their own with the intent of misleading others, should probably go to said country and stay.
As before stated, I've met jerks and butt-wipes of every stripe in every country I've ever been, so what? I'll be damned if I apologize for where I'm from.
On the scale of life Americans have a LOT more to be proud of than ashamed of.
Americans are all too eager to blame themselves, or rather their fellow countrymen for anything and everything at home and abroad.
Canadians will blast us about who we've "annexed," although to my knowledge every person listed came to the U.S. and liked it enough to not only stay but to become citizens. (If whining ever becomes an Olympic sport, Canada is assured of gold...)
Any American cowardly enough to wear a maple leaf or any other symbol of a country other than their own with the intent of misleading others, should probably go to said country and stay.
As before stated, I've met jerks and butt-wipes of every stripe in every country I've ever been, so what? I'll be damned if I apologize for where I'm from.
On the scale of life Americans have a LOT more to be proud of than ashamed of.
Aug 27th, 2004, 03:39 PM
#53
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seaside 1,
My family and I just got back last night from nearly three weeks in Italy. We had a few very interesting conversations about the upcoming presidential elections, but were always treated with respect, warmth, and incredible generosity.
What you describe seems like an isolated event. I think as long as you don't announce your political views ( unless asked) and are polite in conversation, you'll be fine.
My family and I just got back last night from nearly three weeks in Italy. We had a few very interesting conversations about the upcoming presidential elections, but were always treated with respect, warmth, and incredible generosity.
What you describe seems like an isolated event. I think as long as you don't announce your political views ( unless asked) and are polite in conversation, you'll be fine.
Aug 29th, 2004, 07:59 AM
#54
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I was in Italy in July and I am not American....but I did notice that there seemed to be a lot of Canadians about. Everything they wore seemed to be covered in the canadian flag.
Eventually I mentioned this to an American on the train in Italy. She said that a lot of American's were pretending to be Canadians to avoid problems.
Eventually I mentioned this to an American on the train in Italy. She said that a lot of American's were pretending to be Canadians to avoid problems.
Aug 29th, 2004, 08:36 PM
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Last spring when visiting my daughter in England, we did encounter several friends & neighbors of out daughter & son-in-law that were very down on Bush and our war with Iraq, and were very vocal about it, but never did I feel threatened at any time in my stay there.I will be traveling to London & then to Rome in January & I am not too worried.
Sep 1st, 2004, 07:30 AM
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I find it very annoying that people here seem to feel the need to bow and scrape and overtly declare their opposition to Bush or the war before they feel like their Europeans hosts will treat them with respect.
I am totally against Bush, but I would never apologize to some Italian waiter for being American like some of you do. While on vacation, I am on vacation. I am not there to be some sycophant to one of the locals.
Worst of all are those of you who slap Canadian maple leafs all over yourselves. Fine to do it if you're Canadian and wear the maple leaf because you're proud of being Canadian, but shame on you if you wear a maple leaf only to shield yourself from some shopkeeper's ignorance - regardless of your Canadian or American citizenship.
I am totally against Bush, but I would never apologize to some Italian waiter for being American like some of you do. While on vacation, I am on vacation. I am not there to be some sycophant to one of the locals.
Worst of all are those of you who slap Canadian maple leafs all over yourselves. Fine to do it if you're Canadian and wear the maple leaf because you're proud of being Canadian, but shame on you if you wear a maple leaf only to shield yourself from some shopkeeper's ignorance - regardless of your Canadian or American citizenship.
Sep 1st, 2004, 07:38 AM
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My wife and I take one, sometimes two, vacations in Europe (various countries) every year. We were actually in Italy when the Iraq war started. We neither disguise nor flaunt the fact that we are Americans. Our simple policy is to treat everyone we meet with courtesy and respect and expect the same in return. We've never experienced the slightest hint of a problem
Sep 1st, 2004, 09:06 AM
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Here we go again. By the character and number of responses, it fortunately appears that, to begin, not many find this story credible. I must admit, when it starts out " . . a colleague of mine told me about his sister . . ." it sounds more like the beginning of a bar joke. I, too, doubt the veracity of the tale. What may or may not have actually happened seems debatable.
That aside, I am nonetheless growing rather weary of those who want to caution travelers about anti-American sentiment in Europe. It is simply wrong headed. The advice that you should not look like an American tourist is even more absurd. If you're an American tourist, you'll probably be detected. The point, however, is that you needn't feel as if you should hide it. Being an American in Europe in itself, will most likely not be the cause for any conflict ---unless of course you are rude, condescending or excessively loud. If you are cautious and polite, I wager that you will encounter no problems. That works well no matter where you travel (including the USA).
My own recent experiences in European countries belie the harassement theory as well. When I was in Italy last November, I found that the people were friendly, cooperative and, in my case, patient. I even had a rather serious political discussion in a Rome restaurant with strangers visiting from Brussels, but it did not result in any incident. Indeed, both the conversation and the parting were quite amicable. Likewise, in February while I was in Paris (yes- France!!), I was inconvenienced twice by a temporary closing of the metro for security purposes during a foreign dignitary's visit, but I was never the target of abuse or even the slightest disdain, though I'm sure I was clearly identified as an American. If the Parisians I encountered resented my presence, they must have done an expert job of hiding their disapproval, because I was not aware of it at any time. On the contrary, I was impressed with how helpful people often were.
The truth is, there is no guarantee that you will be spared an unpleasant experience while traveling in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. Yet I'm convinced that the most effective method to avoid problems is to be as aware but also as polite and courteous as possible. Enjoy yourself. Don't court trouble and odds are it won't find you. In the meantime, I think dubious stories about Americans being accosted by angry Italians should be evaluated for what they are- just hearsay.
That aside, I am nonetheless growing rather weary of those who want to caution travelers about anti-American sentiment in Europe. It is simply wrong headed. The advice that you should not look like an American tourist is even more absurd. If you're an American tourist, you'll probably be detected. The point, however, is that you needn't feel as if you should hide it. Being an American in Europe in itself, will most likely not be the cause for any conflict ---unless of course you are rude, condescending or excessively loud. If you are cautious and polite, I wager that you will encounter no problems. That works well no matter where you travel (including the USA).
My own recent experiences in European countries belie the harassement theory as well. When I was in Italy last November, I found that the people were friendly, cooperative and, in my case, patient. I even had a rather serious political discussion in a Rome restaurant with strangers visiting from Brussels, but it did not result in any incident. Indeed, both the conversation and the parting were quite amicable. Likewise, in February while I was in Paris (yes- France!!), I was inconvenienced twice by a temporary closing of the metro for security purposes during a foreign dignitary's visit, but I was never the target of abuse or even the slightest disdain, though I'm sure I was clearly identified as an American. If the Parisians I encountered resented my presence, they must have done an expert job of hiding their disapproval, because I was not aware of it at any time. On the contrary, I was impressed with how helpful people often were.
The truth is, there is no guarantee that you will be spared an unpleasant experience while traveling in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. Yet I'm convinced that the most effective method to avoid problems is to be as aware but also as polite and courteous as possible. Enjoy yourself. Don't court trouble and odds are it won't find you. In the meantime, I think dubious stories about Americans being accosted by angry Italians should be evaluated for what they are- just hearsay.
