<Visiting Florence with no interest in Renaissance art would make for a duller visit.>

I heartily agree with Miss P

and...

Visiting London with no interest in traditional English pubs would make for a duller visit.

Churches, palaces, museums, etc. are great but do not neglect the current culture - as found in London's many pubs. On your walk from 11 to about 2 pop into a local pub and try the pub grub most have for lunch - now here's a place where you actually may want to stay a few hours!

Kim, why don't you go ahead and post (start a new thread if you want) telling us where you want to go on this trip, what time of year, and how many days you plan to be in Europe. There are a lot of people here who can help you figure out the best way to do what you want to do.

Lee Ann

Re the idea of seeing St. Paul's in 15 minutes.

I suppose one could do this, but you'd miss quite a bit. There's the main floor to explore (done with the provided map and looking around further at the detail work, it takes some time). There's the crypt, which is fascinating and contains a number of famous people buried within (if you want to ferret out the floor or wall stones for your favorite writers, painters, musicians, architects, scientists, war heroes, noblemen, and such, it can take a while). There's the climb up and back to the various upper gallery viewing areas, which takes some time as well. Doing all this took me a couple hours, which I thought were very fruitfully spent.

Plus it seems a waste of 9 pounds to just blow in and out of the place.

I remember somebody in Cambridge talking about look-n-lickers.
These are tourists who get off a bus outside a college, have a quick look at the outside of the building, buy an ice-cream and get back on the bus.
For them, fifteen minutes would be plenty, I suppose.

<I remember somebody in Cambridge talking about look-n-lickers.>

And those folks, ladies and gentlemen, are rather typical tourists who Fodor oligarchs just can't relate to.

With some thirty years of travel experience I would agree that there are certainly 'look- n- lickers', but are they typical? No.

Most people i think go to Europe on guided tours and these tourists i think are typically 'look'n lickers'

and on your first trip ever did you operate differently than you do now?

I wanted to see everything my first trip as a college student and would have been disdained as a look n licker for sure - but i loved it.

Think that when folks who are first-time travelers ask questions here the Fodor oligarchs have trouble putting themselves back in the first trip mode.

doesnt matter if youre a new traveler or extensive traveler. if the interest isnt there, then no need to spend 2 hours in a church. i like to say im well traveled. i'd much rather spend my time at a pub or outdoor cafe people watching. i like to shop too. we check out the big sites at any given city just to see it and say we've seen it. in my opinion, its the interest that governs the amount of time one can spend at any attraction.

look-n-lickers. hmmm... are we referring to the oriental tourists that get off by the busload with cameras around their necks? At sunset beach in hawaii, every twenty mintues, a bus would unload 30 oriental tourists at a time, gloves up to their elbows, wearing surgical face masks, with sun umbrellas, posing for pictures for about 5 minutes and then off they go again. pretty ridiculous. i took pictures of them.

Summa- you hit it on the head about the cultural elitism some Fodor oligarchs have - you gotta spend minimum two hours in that church, four hours in that museum or it ain't even worth going to London

I could say you have to spend two hours at this market or in the Trocadero but that would be inflicting by cultural views on others.

In a thread last week the OP may it clear that she wanted to go to Disneyland in Paris even though her time in Paris was limited - she had always wanted to. Well the oligarchs got a hold of that and soon the poster, a first-time poster was crying online - saying that she was sorry she even posted it after the torrent of criticism - people calling her practically an idiot, etc.

This is the type of cultural elitism that Fodor oligarchs are object guilt of IMO

Summagold, our traveling interests are very much aligned with your's. We've been to London a number of times, so if you have any specific questions you'd like to ask of someone who wouldn't pay $16 to visit St. Paul's, or, for that matter, spend more than 15 minutes examining it(ask me sometime about our last trip to the Vatican!), feel free to email me at dmlove51 at hotmail (that's my "public" email address.

LOL! You guys just made my lunch break.

Haven't read this board since planning my trip to England last Spring. There are some things you get to know real fast after doing research on here: Be Afraid! Be VERY Afraid - to ask for help.

ROFLMAO - Some things never change.

This board is full of information but it's best to study it quietly through doing searches. You can get most answers w/o having to post. (Which is dangerous! It's a lion's den in here!)

sf7307 - Yes posting can be like subjecting yourself to the Fodor's Inquisition - like this poor person who after a good going over by the oligarchs said:

<I just wanted some opinions about that not really tearing down my ideas..... this was a first time fodors post...>

And probably a last time Fodor's post. And this happens over and over and over

I just can't resist weighing in:

I love London. I've visited more times than I can count, have lived there and would live there again.

I have:

1) never been to the Tower of London.

2) cannot stand pubs.

3) have no interest in ever taking the London Eye.

4) think Picadilly Circus is a tourist trap

5) think the V&A wins hands down as world's most overrated museums, and that includes Tate Modern

6) think the food in London STILL sucks, unless you go recent-immigrant-ethnic

7) cannot tell West Ham from pork butt

8) have never visited the Imperial War Museum and doubt I ever will

9) have never been to a play in London that costs more than 5 GBP for a ticket

10) can only remember a handful of days out of more than a thousand when the weather could be called (even remotely) "nice"

(and I hate the Tube and Portobello Road but this has got to stop somewhere)

When I go to London, I go to Somerset House, the British Museum, the Tate (the real one!), the National Portrait Gallery. the bookstores, Kenwood House, Islington, Marylebone, the parks (all of them), the south Bank, Westminster Cathedral as well as the abbey, the houses of Parliament and some other choice places hither and yon...

And I think the Rome is the greatest city humans ever built, or Paris.

I'm still here PQ. I'm just silent and researching. Haha...
or giving my OPINIONS! Oh dear! haha

JW - Courage! Now you know what folks went thru in the Spanish Inquisition - the Fodor's Oligarchs' Inquisition. Unfortunately many have not been so courageous and left after the rude treatments.

Kim -- You asked what you can reasonably see between, say, 10am and 4pm.

A relevant issue is when your flight from North America arrives. If you get in the previous night, then yes, you may well have energy for a full tourism day. But if you take an overnight flight that gets in around 6 or 7 am, you're not likely to have energy for a truly full day of sightseeing, though getting outdoors and walking around does help combat jet lag. (Then again, your mileage may vary, if you're one of those fortunate people who sleep well on planes!)

<I would start at the Tower of London, move on to St. Pauls. Cross the Thames using the Millenium Bridge and then walk up to Big Ben on the south bank. From there go to Westminster Abbey. Walk up Whitehall from there to Trafalgar Square and then on to Piccadilly Circus.>

<SUMMAGOLD: Since you don't like my advice - I suggest you try that walk and let us know how it worked out . . . . .>

Note that this was intended only to be a reply to the above, but Im afraid it turned out to be a trip report. But I will post on here anyway because I don’t think it’s a real trip report, and worthy of its own post, and because I’m a really bad writer.

We are back from our 4 days in London and as promised wanted to let you all know how we made out on foot. We didn’t walk that much, but did use the Underground a lot. The only walk we did was from a pub off Piccadilly square to Westminster. It was cold and dark walking past St. James Park. We found that the Underground is very efficient, if not more than ny city subways. I loved the fact that it gives you the time the train is expected to arrive. We really could use that here in nyc. I’ve waited for the darn 4 train at grand central thinking it’s coming any minute, but ended up waiting 10 minutes when I could’ve just hopped on the 6! Back to the Underground. It is very efficient, bright and clean. But I do have one complaint, why oh why aren’t the platforms the same height as the train? The trains are like 2 feet higher than the platform. You have to literally hop on and hop off the trains! And with luggage, it really sucked.
We toured London at a very easy pace. We slept in the mornings, in fact didn’t get out until about noon or so. We had such a pleasant stay at the Hoxton Hotel. It was really up our alley. Aside from the clean, minimalist rooms and free wifi throughout the hotel, they had a good bar and lounge scene. We liked how at the end of our day, we could hang out at the lounge, sit by the fireplace and enjoy cocktails; and sometimes with my laptop and peruse Facebook.

British Museum: probably spent less than an hour. We just had to see the Rosetta Stone, and after that, we wandered a bit, took some more pics in the cafeteria/bookstore area and left.

London Eye: my hubby really wanted to go, so we did, and because its the thing to do (??). In my opinion and if I could suggest to anyone, this can be skipped. There’s really nothing to see, unless youre into views. The views are nice, but we’re just not into that. I think my husband was hoping it was an adventure ride or something of the sort. I told him it wasn’t, but he wanted to go. We got the tickets the night before online, and we picked up the tickets at the counter when we got there. We did get a small discount. My suggestion to London Eye, they should do something like they do for the Eiffel Tower, and have signs or something directing your eye which direction is which. Like in this direction is France, that direction is St. Paul’s, or something to make the ride more interesting and to make the admission fee of 15 Pounds worth it!

Harrods: My absolute favorite place in London! We ate lunch at Rotisserie luncheon counters. My husband wanted the chicken, but I wanted caviar and champagne. The server said that he could give me the menu and serve me food from the seafood bar. We had such a great time there!

HOHO Bus: The Big Bus Company ripped us off. We literally waited over 30 minutes for the next bus to arrive. Im really annoyed at myself because I meant to buy from the Original London Sightseeing Tour, but by the time I realized it, they had already rung up my husband’s cc. Anyway, waiting in the cold for over 30 mins, when the Original bus came every 10 minutes really didn’t help. And the fact that our bus had only a headset guide and not a real tour guide, and that when it detoured for 20 minutes, we didn’t hear a thing, and then the bus driver announced that we had to get off because it was his last shift, that really set me off.

Westminster Abbey: we stood in line in the cold, but got in just in time for the next Verger tour, and they had space for us! Thanks to you Fodorites for the tip on Verger tours.

St. Pauls and Tower of London: we skipped.

Questions about Boxing Day: almost everything is closed! Even Harrods. Everything was back to normal the following day.

The Heathrow Express: slow and expensive. We waited about 15 mins for the train shuttle to finally move, and then had to get off next stop to wait another 15 minutes for Heathrow Express to show up, and then another 15 minutes for it move. 16.50 Pound each; that’s $24 a person! Next time, we’re taking a cab!

Oyster Card: We bought the Oyster card when we got to Paddington Station because they didn’t sell it at Heathrow. We each got one and put in 15 Pounds each, and later added another 5. The Oyster card was very, very convenient. At the end of our trip we thought we could surrender it at the airport and get back our deposit and whatever was left over, but the station at London City Airport doesn’t do this, I guess. So the woman at the window took our card and information and said she would mail it out for us, and that we should get credit for it in the mail. Let us see.

Oh and I wanted to mention, the Britons are sooooo nice and sooooo polite. Such a beautiful and clean city. We had such a great experience in London. Reminded me of how nice people were in Switzerland.

Thanks all for listening. If you have any questions, just ask and I will be happy to help. No question is stupid or repetitive. Ask away!

No questions, just wanted to comment on two things:

1) I completely agree that the London Eye should have pictures or maps or something to tell you what you're looking at!

2) They certainly do sell Oyster cards at Heathrow -- we got our's their (and returned them for refunds when we left from there) in August.

hi sf, just curious, where did you buy the oyster card at Heathrow? We walked over to the heathrow express counter (we followed the direction to the Trains and the counter is off to the right just before the escalators to the trains). The woman behind the couter said they can only sell us tickets for the Heathrow Express and tickets for the Underground but we would have to go to Paddington Station for the Oyster Card. hmmmm... maybe they just ran out of them?