Happy Traveler don't rain on her parade ... this person perhaps is not as fortunate as you, and able to go abroad frequently -- this may be her very first time! And she wants to See and Do. I know how she feels. Two is not overly ambitious; one country is for the traveler who expects to take another 6 or 8 trips to Europe in the foreseeable future.

Yes agree with travelerjan!

Jwood is just trying to figure things out, throwing out ideas here and seeing what sticks. I believe she has been taking this advice to heart and will figure out what works for them on this trip.

No need to stick to only one country in 2-3 weeks if one's desire is more. She can easily combine Italy/Greece for example. Maybe Germany/France.

Jwood - I know the "agony" of trying to choose where to go! You are making progress. You really cannot go wrong with ANY of your choices.

Ok. I have taken the advice of many of you and have now proposed a very preliminary city itinerary to our friends. Here's the general outline:

Rome - 5 days
Florence - 3-4 days (w/ possible days trips to Pisa, through Chianti, and/or Siena)
Venice - 3-4 days
Paris - 5 days (w/ possible day trip to Normandy Beach)

This itinerary is dependent on whether or not our friends can stay for more than two weeks. If not, we'll have to cut a city. Our group definitely wants to spend time in Rome, so that's a must. We have tons of time to plan but wanted to nail down our cities so we can (1) get an idea of cost and (2) start to research and plan the details. Any comments you have, please share. Thank you!

NOw THAT sounds like a very do-able itinerary! I would think about going perhaps in May ... warm but not hot, not too crowdy yet. Plus, the loooong days (more for your money!). I shall never forget in May the early evening in Paris (sorry: name of awful cheap US 'drugstor perfume' of the 1950s) .... the sun doesn't set until 9 or later, and the afterglow -- it's this amazing lavender/blue light. In French it's actually called "l'heur bleu" (which is another parfum, but French, and a better one).

Yes, I'd agree that two countries is ideal for your itinerary.

Now I wonder if anyone can match a two week trip I took in my 20s, driving my Porsche 911? Countries visited in order: UK - France -Andorra - Spain - France (again) - Monaco (for the Grand Prix) - Italy - Austria - Germany - Belgium - UK.

I think that itinerary is very doable. One suggestion is to read some trip reports (there are many, many here for Italy and Paris) - when I'm planning trips, I find that those can give me some good ideas I might not have thought of, and help me figure out how long I'd like to spend in each place (which may not be the same amount of time everyone else would like to spend!).

Heimdall, you really know how to hurt. Young. Wealthy. Porsche owner. Why did we not meet then? And now ... it's all memories and Antiparos. And a 3-speed bicycle.

And me with a VW. ;-)

BTW, a dollar went a long way in those days. I certainly wasn't wealthy, but as a bachelor officer in the USAF, could afford a sports car and a bit of travel.

Aaaah. A uniform. An officer. And with a floppy hat-brim. Swoon.

We just got back from three weeks in france and I still feel like we didn't really get to see that much of this beautiful country. If you want scenery and beautiful places - I would go to france and northern italy, including the Lake districk - loved Lake Como, Lake Garda, and of course Venice. In France, the Loire valley and dordogne are amazing. We went in May this year and had amazing weather....We usually travel this time of the year in europe and have been very lucky with weather. If you want to go to Germany, then you could do Germany, Austria and France. We drove from Germany to Paris and it was an easy drive. Austria and Germany are very beautiful as well. Also went there in late May, early June and it was beautiful. Switzerland - much more expensive. Remember the more distance traveling you do, you take a day away from sightseeing, so unless you are driving, you will miss scenery if you are in airports.

<i>"Ok. I have taken the advice of many of you and have now proposed a very preliminary city itinerary to our friends. Here's the general outline:

Rome - 5 days
Florence - 3-4 days (w/ possible days trips to Pisa, through Chianti, and/or Siena)
Venice - 3-4 days
Paris - 5 days (w/ possible day trip to Normandy Beach)

This itinerary is dependent on whether or not our friends can stay for more than two weeks. If not, we'll have to cut a city. Our group definitely wants to spend time in Rome, so that's a must".</i>

New outline looks great. All 4 destinations are "must" IMHO, but Rome, Venice, and Paris are absolute musts! If you absolutely must cut one, then grit your teeth and cut Florence.

<i>"We have tons of time to plan but wanted to nail down our cities so we can (1) get an idea of cost and (2) start to research and plan the details. Any comments you have, please share. Thank you!"</i>

Yes, you have plenty of time... but I would seriously start looking at accommodations 6-9 months before you leave. While it's true you can always find some place to stay much closer to departing, securing that "one" special apartment on the perfect block, or that "one" flat with a perfect balcony/terrace, or even that "one" special room (number xx) in that one small, well located, hotel with the perfect view often means being the first one to request it.

Your new plan is just about perfect. If you do have to cut, I agree with Bardo1 to cut Florence, or do it as a day trip from Rome if you find you want to do that once you are there. If you have a week longer than your friends, they could depart from Paris and you could spend another week with lots of options: the rest of your time in France, the Netherlands or Belgium, England or Ireland. I would probably choose Provence because it is so different from your other places, gets you away from cities and would not eat up too much travel time. However, neither would England or Belgium. I know you didn't mentioned these, but I would choose them over Ireland: first, because I like them more, and second, because they are logistically easier from Paris with less travel time from place to place once you are there.

The other alternative would be for you to fly into Italy a week ahead and spend a week in Tuscany or on the Amalfi Coast before your friends arrive. I would choose the AC because you could visit Pompeii (and other similar sights), and it is a wonderful place to relax and get your first taste of the most beautiful landscapes you can imagine. IMHO, this would be the most perfect experience you could have on a first trip to Italy, and you could depart from Paris with your friends.

The only problem with this is that your friends could be terribly jealous, especially if they see pictures of Positano. You might have to think about that. If they have traveled much before, they probably would not care. If they haven't, they might want to start out together. The beginning of a trip is always so exciting.

Bardo: We did Rome-Florence-Venice-Paris about 5 years ago. What a fabulous trip! We took the train to Florence and Venice. Flew to Paris Orly from Venice.

Compared to most newbies, you've hit on the practically-perfect itinerary on your first day. That's a big accomplishment!

Ooops, Bardo. That was meant for Jwood.

Our top 5 countries include Italy, Germany, Ireland, France, and Greece>

Of course for 2-3 weeks you must chose as these are in 3 far-removed places and even though you could fly between them I'd settle for say three contiguous countries like Italy, Germany and France (OK not contiguous but almost as tiny Switzerland or a slice of Austria is between Italy and Germany).

You could though open-jaw - into say Dublin - then do a cheap Raynair flight to someplace in France or Germany and go south to Italy - if going mainly to big tourist cities then I'd go by train as cars these days are white elephants in many european cities - either outright banned from city centers or with many areas off-limits - parking can be expensive and hard to find as cities seek to deter vehicles from their already congested city centres. Rome and Florence and of course Venice for example have pretty much banned private vehicles from their historic cores (and many Fodorites post later about getting home and finding they got a ticket when cameras snapped their license plate entering a no-go zone since they did not recongiize the no-go zone sign. so if cities take the modern high-speed rail system between cities - if wanting to visit countryside then rent a car - most tourists however want to visit the cities like Rome, Florence, Paris, etc they have always dreamt about visiting.

anyway for lots of great info on train travel, which I admit I am partial to after riding the rails in Europe for decades now - check out these superb IMO sites - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - check out the latter's online free European Rail & Planning Guide that is a good itinerary planner aid for each country - esp if going by rail. Fodor's and Fodorites are as a group an excellent source of info - amongst the best of any travel forum IMO so ask new questions and be surprised by how many experts there are on a plethora of topics here.

As a practical matter consider the issues of clothing and mixing two distinct climates. Going to say Ireland and Greece implies clothing for cooler, wet weather and clothing for warmer, beach weather. Given the limitations and significant cost of bags that are overweight on intra-Europe flights, you can see the issue.

We in fact did that this past summer. We went to Ireland and Paris. We needed in effect two types of clothes as we intended to visit places in Paris that required a bit more dressed up look that we needed in Ireland. The excess weight fee on Air Lingus was more than the cost of our 4 tickets. (We knew this going in as my wife and daughter are crazy for clothes and shoes.)

Depending on time of year, you might consider a cruise. Not the ideal way for me to see Southern Europe, but for your first trip that could provide a lot for year.

I know there are cruise lines that will go from say Italy or Spain on a "Grand Europe" Tour that will take you to cities along the Baltic.

Perhaps that option is something to consider.

The real question comes down to depth versus breadth. You can easily spend a week touring Ireland or even a week in just Paris. Depth probably implies just three locations over the course of three weeks, which leaves time to travel within that area. For breadth and not depth, a cruise might be the best option.