Ham in Europe
Jul 18th, 2013, 01:30 PM
#42
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<i>If anyone had a choice to believe TravelG or Big Russ I would believe La Tienda and others. La Tienda and Despana (explanation above) make and import quality products from Spain.</i>
I'd appreciate it if you were to point out where my statements are in disagreement with any of those sources.
To get you started, I will offer that the primary quibble I have with the sources you linked to would be with jamon.com's misunderstanding (seemingly plagiarized from La Tienda, or possibly the other way around) of what causes the weight loss during the curing process, which is largely water loss, not fat loss. I'd ask them the question of what the white stuff is in the ham, if the fat "drips away". Lard has a melting point of around 100F, so I struggle to understand how sustained temperatures capable of melting large amounts of fat are possible at elevation in a ventilated room. I will acknowledge, that it might be possible for some external fat to be lost in this manner, but it should be noted that such fat is usually trimmed from the ham prior to serving.
But they have hams to sell, and it is probably best to pretend that it is something other than a high fat product. The reality, though, is that a finished iberico ham is around 20% fat by weight and fat accounts for around 60% of the calories.
I'm also a little concerned that they may be over-reaching on the notion that the saturated fats are "transformed". The fat in iberico hams still contains roughly 40% saturated fats and around 10% poly-unsaturated fats. They do have higher levels of mono-unsaturated fats than other hams, but this is likely due to breed and diet, rather than any "transformation". As for the oleic acid... Lard is high in oleic acid, so there is nothing special there, either.
All in all, though, the linked articles are accurate enough about the process, even if they don't understand the difference between lose and loose, either.
I'd appreciate it if you were to point out where my statements are in disagreement with any of those sources.
To get you started, I will offer that the primary quibble I have with the sources you linked to would be with jamon.com's misunderstanding (seemingly plagiarized from La Tienda, or possibly the other way around) of what causes the weight loss during the curing process, which is largely water loss, not fat loss. I'd ask them the question of what the white stuff is in the ham, if the fat "drips away". Lard has a melting point of around 100F, so I struggle to understand how sustained temperatures capable of melting large amounts of fat are possible at elevation in a ventilated room. I will acknowledge, that it might be possible for some external fat to be lost in this manner, but it should be noted that such fat is usually trimmed from the ham prior to serving.
But they have hams to sell, and it is probably best to pretend that it is something other than a high fat product. The reality, though, is that a finished iberico ham is around 20% fat by weight and fat accounts for around 60% of the calories.
I'm also a little concerned that they may be over-reaching on the notion that the saturated fats are "transformed". The fat in iberico hams still contains roughly 40% saturated fats and around 10% poly-unsaturated fats. They do have higher levels of mono-unsaturated fats than other hams, but this is likely due to breed and diet, rather than any "transformation". As for the oleic acid... Lard is high in oleic acid, so there is nothing special there, either.
All in all, though, the linked articles are accurate enough about the process, even if they don't understand the difference between lose and loose, either.
Jul 18th, 2013, 03:04 PM
#43
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All in all, though, the linked articles are accurate enough about the process, even if they don't understand the difference between lose and loose, either.
___________
Fine, you win the spelling bee for 13 year olds but lose the loose adult conversation about Iberico jamon.
I wonder why I would trust multiple references of people who do this for a living over the thoughts of someone whose facts are based in pretense. Of course, no can be trusted including those who have never cured a ham. (Just a guess.)
___________
Fine, you win the spelling bee for 13 year olds but lose the loose adult conversation about Iberico jamon.
I wonder why I would trust multiple references of people who do this for a living over the thoughts of someone whose facts are based in pretense. Of course, no can be trusted including those who have never cured a ham. (Just a guess.)
Jul 18th, 2013, 04:17 PM
#44
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<i>I wonder why I would trust multiple references of people who do this for a living</i>
Do what for a living? Sell ham? Would it help if I got the stock boy from Stop 'n Shop to offer his expert opinion, too? Surely, this can't be the first time someone trying to sell something has gotten it wrong?
What the site describes with regards to fat loss and "transformation" are simply not correct.
I also ask if you even read the links? Because there aren't "multiple sources" for the point I am disputing. There is one. Neither of the other two sources make claims about fat transformation or fat loss as a significant factor in weight loss.
<i>over the thoughts of someone whose facts are based in pretense.</i>
Because my facts are based upon objective physical properties, not pretense. Water is forced from meat at salinities above 6%, which is what accounts for the weight loss, not fat dripping from the meat largely at temperatures below their melting point.
But, hey, regale us again with stories of these magical hams that are only half covered in kosher salt and the preservative properties of pepper. I'm excited to learn more!
Don't confuse the fact that someone knows more than you with their being incorrect,
<i>Of course, no can be trusted including those who have never cured a ham.</i>
I've cured a bit of meat in my time. Indeed, my "dream" is to open a butcher shop specializing in boutique meats and house-cured meats.
Do what for a living? Sell ham? Would it help if I got the stock boy from Stop 'n Shop to offer his expert opinion, too? Surely, this can't be the first time someone trying to sell something has gotten it wrong?
What the site describes with regards to fat loss and "transformation" are simply not correct.
I also ask if you even read the links? Because there aren't "multiple sources" for the point I am disputing. There is one. Neither of the other two sources make claims about fat transformation or fat loss as a significant factor in weight loss.
<i>over the thoughts of someone whose facts are based in pretense.</i>
Because my facts are based upon objective physical properties, not pretense. Water is forced from meat at salinities above 6%, which is what accounts for the weight loss, not fat dripping from the meat largely at temperatures below their melting point.
But, hey, regale us again with stories of these magical hams that are only half covered in kosher salt and the preservative properties of pepper. I'm excited to learn more!
Don't confuse the fact that someone knows more than you with their being incorrect,
<i>Of course, no can be trusted including those who have never cured a ham.</i>
I've cured a bit of meat in my time. Indeed, my "dream" is to open a butcher shop specializing in boutique meats and house-cured meats.
Jul 18th, 2013, 06:46 PM
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Well TravelG, when I catch you on your knees feeding a pata negra acorns, your assessment while rise inestimably. Until then I will rely on the people of Despana who actually do this for a living by importing superior provisions from Spain and making the best chorizos I have tasted in the United States. A sentiment echosed by wife's family who happen to be Spanish.
One can only hope that cure for pomposity is found in the interim in order to reduce the perecntage of unwanted waste.
One can only hope that cure for pomposity is found in the interim in order to reduce the perecntage of unwanted waste.
Jul 18th, 2013, 07:05 PM
#46
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<i>when I catch you on your knees feeding a pata negra acorns, your assessment while rise inestimably.</i>
That isn't how it works.
<i>who actually do this for a living by importing superior provisions from Spain</i>
What does an expertise in import regulations, logistics, and marketing have to do with ham manufacture?
<i>A sentiment echosed by wife's family who happen to be Spanish. </i>
Good for them. If they want to start talking about fat dripping from the ham, I will mock them too. In Spanish. Being born in Spain doesn't give you carte blanche to deny basic physical properties of foods.
<i>One can only hope that cure for pomposity is found in the interim in order to reduce the perecntage of unwanted waste.</i>
Still waiting for more information on these half-cured hams. Seriously, this is exciting news and could be revolutionary to the ham business.
You are pissy because I called your bluff. You don't know what you are talking about. I called you on that and you made up some stupid garbage about half-salted hams. Stop digging.
That isn't how it works.
<i>who actually do this for a living by importing superior provisions from Spain</i>
What does an expertise in import regulations, logistics, and marketing have to do with ham manufacture?
<i>A sentiment echosed by wife's family who happen to be Spanish. </i>
Good for them. If they want to start talking about fat dripping from the ham, I will mock them too. In Spanish. Being born in Spain doesn't give you carte blanche to deny basic physical properties of foods.
<i>One can only hope that cure for pomposity is found in the interim in order to reduce the perecntage of unwanted waste.</i>
Still waiting for more information on these half-cured hams. Seriously, this is exciting news and could be revolutionary to the ham business.
You are pissy because I called your bluff. You don't know what you are talking about. I called you on that and you made up some stupid garbage about half-salted hams. Stop digging.
Jul 18th, 2013, 07:27 PM
#48
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There is no bluff to be called. You are the classic example of a consultant who learns from a book and hasn't a clue as to how the world works but insists on being listed to. And like all consultants you want authority without responsibility.
Just because we have spent time with relatives who cure their meat and raise pigs to make them into chorizos, obviously gives us no insight.
But I have learned, until otherwise informed, to trust people who do this daily as opposed to someone knows by osmosis.
And of course, you would denigrate the people at Despana as you have never purchased anything there or had detailed conversations about their products including the Iberico jamon.
Pomposity knows no bounds.
Just because we have spent time with relatives who cure their meat and raise pigs to make them into chorizos, obviously gives us no insight.
But I have learned, until otherwise informed, to trust people who do this daily as opposed to someone knows by osmosis.
And of course, you would denigrate the people at Despana as you have never purchased anything there or had detailed conversations about their products including the Iberico jamon.
Pomposity knows no bounds.
Jul 18th, 2013, 07:30 PM
#49
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As far as being a travel forum, food to many is an important part of the travel experience. And Iberico jamon is unique to Spain and is incredibly expensive. To know what is correct is to know why anything is correct.
Jul 19th, 2013, 05:21 AM
#51
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<i>You are the classic example of a consultant</i>
I am not now, nor have I ever been a consultant.
<i>who learns from a book</i>
Yeah. That damn book-learnin'. Who wants that?
<i>hasn't a clue as to how the world works</i>
Actually reading books about the science of food is done precisely because it helps us understand how the world works. This notion that making a ham is some sort of mysticism that can't be understood intellectually is precisely the sort of nonsense that I am objecting to.
<i>Just because we have spent time with relatives who cure their meat and raise pigs to make them into chorizos, obviously gives us no insight.</i>
Apparently it doesn't, since you don't understand basics like, "what salt does".
<i>And of course, you would denigrate the people at Despana as you have never purchased anything there or had detailed conversations about their products including the Iberico jamon.</i>
I wouldn't denigrate them. I would mock their ignorance if they started uttering nonsense about fat "dripping" away from the ham, but that isn't denigrating. To date, I have no reason to think they have done so.
I am not now, nor have I ever been a consultant.
<i>who learns from a book</i>
Yeah. That damn book-learnin'. Who wants that?
<i>hasn't a clue as to how the world works</i>
Actually reading books about the science of food is done precisely because it helps us understand how the world works. This notion that making a ham is some sort of mysticism that can't be understood intellectually is precisely the sort of nonsense that I am objecting to.
<i>Just because we have spent time with relatives who cure their meat and raise pigs to make them into chorizos, obviously gives us no insight.</i>
Apparently it doesn't, since you don't understand basics like, "what salt does".
<i>And of course, you would denigrate the people at Despana as you have never purchased anything there or had detailed conversations about their products including the Iberico jamon.</i>
I wouldn't denigrate them. I would mock their ignorance if they started uttering nonsense about fat "dripping" away from the ham, but that isn't denigrating. To date, I have no reason to think they have done so.
Aug 6th, 2013, 01:05 PM
#52
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Aug 6th, 2013, 04:56 PM
#53
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The Iberian 'creme de la creme' ham is now available for $100 per pound at Fairway Markets. You can contact them to sort out what variety this is. So, why dont you all stop quibbling and go get some!!!
Aug 6th, 2013, 05:23 PM
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I am not sure that the ham sold at Fariway is really the "creme de la creme." There are dozens, if not more, of varieties of jamon Iberico on sale at large markets in Spain.
Does Fairway carry bellota Iberico?
Even within that category, I believe there are several designations depending on whether or not the pig has grazed on acorns in the "dehesa" for the last months of life, what cut of the ham is for sale, how long the ham has been aged, etc. Interested to learn more..(??)
Does Fairway carry bellota Iberico?
Even within that category, I believe there are several designations depending on whether or not the pig has grazed on acorns in the "dehesa" for the last months of life, what cut of the ham is for sale, how long the ham has been aged, etc. Interested to learn more..(??)
Aug 6th, 2013, 05:41 PM
#55
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<i>The Iberian 'creme de la creme' ham is now available for $100 per pound at Fairway Markets</i>
Probably very good, but not top of the line, although I am not sure that I could distinguish between very good and the <i>crème de la crème</i>. I recall a price of 120€ the kilo for the best at the central market in Barcelona 14 years ago. Prices probably have not gone down and we know how prices are jacked up for specialty items when imported to the States--foie gras anyone?
Probably very good, but not top of the line, although I am not sure that I could distinguish between very good and the <i>crème de la crème</i>. I recall a price of 120€ the kilo for the best at the central market in Barcelona 14 years ago. Prices probably have not gone down and we know how prices are jacked up for specialty items when imported to the States--foie gras anyone?
Aug 6th, 2013, 09:39 PM
#57
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Why should I? I checked as to when the euro was introduced, and I simply do not recall using pesetas in 2000 when I was in Barcelona. But the high price of the ham was memorable; there were about ten different prices, all of them high. The stall was in the back of the market.
Aug 7th, 2013, 02:48 AM
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That sounds about right, although I think I saw some a few months ago (Sevilla) ranging from about 90e or so upwards to 140e per kilo. Price also depends on producer, and other factors too complicated to remember in detail.
Aug 7th, 2013, 11:55 AM
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The next time I am at Fairway, I will sample a piece and identify the variety. It was Vogue Magazine who did a detailed piece on Iberian ham and how I found out only Fairway in the States was to carry the such-and-such.....
Aug 7th, 2013, 12:28 PM
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I would be curious.
The Vogue article was written by Jeffrey Steingarten, the magazine's food critic and a noted food writer (I highly recommend his books) and mentions the hams of several famous producers including Fermin and 5Jotas.
I would be surprised if Fairway has the exclusive on either one. Another element affecting price here in NY is whether or not the jam has been hand or machine sliced. The former is the preference of aficionados.
The Vogue article was written by Jeffrey Steingarten, the magazine's food critic and a noted food writer (I highly recommend his books) and mentions the hams of several famous producers including Fermin and 5Jotas.
I would be surprised if Fairway has the exclusive on either one. Another element affecting price here in NY is whether or not the jam has been hand or machine sliced. The former is the preference of aficionados.
