My goals for a summer visit (June or July) would be as follows: Enjoy some cycling, and immerse myself in Dutch language (I've nearly completed the Living Languages "Dutch" book and want to practice now!), history, architecture and culture.

I'd ideally like to base myself in one location for about 10 days to have more of a true "immersion" and was debating between staying in Haarlem and staying in Amsterdam. This would be my first trip to the Netherlands.

Haarlem I liked the idea of since I've been told that this, more than other locales, is where people speak "standard Dutch" naturally rather than dialect, so of anywhere this seems where I'd mostly likely be able to practice. I wonder if Amsterdam is such an international and globalized business & tourist city that I won't even be running into native Dutch-speakers all that often? Haarlem also seems charming, manageable and pretty easy to get into Amsterdam by train whenever I should choose to do so (which I'd like to do, and likely a few times!). I like as well that Haarlem appears more affordable and quieter (but with enough amenities and enough street life to have its own personality and "energy"?) which I kind of like the idea of... But maybe I'm off-base with how things "seem"?

Yet ...Amsterdam is so renowned, I wonder if I'll be missing out somehow on some of those spontaneous urban pleasures by NOT staying in Amsterdam proper.

Let me know your thoughts, whatever they are. Best wishes, Daniel

hi Daniel,

congrats on having learnt Dutch - i know from my own attempts to learn Italian that in the end, you just have to go there to learn it properly.

yes i think you would miss a lot by staying outside of Amsterdam, though Haarlem is very nice it's basically a quiet town. it's easy to get into amsterdam from there but the trouble is, you would probably spend most of your time doing just that - which would be a waste of time and money.

OTOH, many people in Amsterdam speak english. perhaps you should consider spending half of your trip in amsterdam, then hire a bike an take off? this will give you more chances for interaction with dutch people.

Dan,

I don't think it matters at all where you stay in the Netherlands as far as you wanting to speak Dutch. Many/mot people in either Amsterdam or Haarlem will speak English, and as soon as they hear your language they will switch to that language. The important thing is for you to let them know you want to practice your Dutch.

My own exposure to Dutch came many years ago in Amsterdam when I was living on my boat and trying to sell her. I was very broke, but also quite lonely, so I would go to a Brown Cafe (they only sold booze then) and would sit down with a small beer. I had a small book; "How to speak Dutch in ten easy lessons" sort of tome I would bring out and study.

I would wait for a really attractive woman to come in, and then take my book up to her. "Pardon, spreek Engels?", I would say. She would invariably respond with, "A little"; meaning she spoke it better than I did.

I would explain that I was trying to learn Dutch, and say that I was having trouble with one word, "Nieuwsgeirigheid". It means "curiosity", and is almost impossible to pronounce unless you are either Dutch, or have a fish bone stuck in your throat.

A conversation would start, she would offer to help, and things would progress (or not) from there.

I never did learn much Dutch, but perhaps your luck will be better in that department if you insist on actually speaking Dutch.

Great story nukesafe, really great.

I first lived in the Netherlands in the late 1970s. I worked in Haarlem. I tried to learn Dutch. I had a little book (it may have been the same one that nukesafe used) and would spend a half hour every morning before hours in the office working on the language. One morning my boss came in early and asked me what I was doing. I told him that I was studying Dutch. In a roar he shouted "Why are you doing that? Only we speak Dutch!"

I ended up learning most of my Dutch by hanging out in the local cafes, watching TV, and by dating Dutch girls. Learning Dutch was my first experience with a foreign language, except for two years each of high school Latin and German. Picking up Dutch is very difficult because everybody in Holland wants to, and can, speak English. And some of them have an attitude about foreigners learning their tongue, as my boss demonstrated. Another time I was washing my car in the street when a car pulled up and stopped next to me. A spry old man leaned out the window and asked me how to get to the train station. I started to tell him, in my best Dutch of course, and was nearly done when he abruptly shouted back in English "In your own language! In your own language!" And again, I was back in Amsterdam after my first month of studying French at the Alliance Française in Paris. In a bakery I ordered a loaf of that beautiful Dutch bread, speaking Dutch. The owner replied in English. I replied in French. Then she retreated to Dutch. Yippee! I won. Oh, that felt so good.

Daniel_Williams,
It is evident that you have done your homework. Haarlem is the BEST place to (attempt to) speak Dutch. There are some great cafes/pubs around the Grote Kerk. My favorite was the Proeflokaal Blaue Druif on Langeveerstraat, just south of the church. We called it the Proef. It has changed hands a number of times in 30 years but the interior still looks like it did in 1976. Another good place is the In den Uiver on the north side of the church. The Uiver has (had) live jazz on Thursday and Sunday. You will have friends in the Uiver in minutes. This place was originally a fish shop but it has plenty of memorabilia of KLM.

My apartment was at the corner of the river Spaarne and the canal Bakenessergracht. A beautiful bridge, the Gravestenenbrug, was right outside my window. The Tyler's Museum was six doors away. The rebuilt De Adriaan windmill is a short walk away. The Frans Hals Museum is buried away on the the south side of the city. It is a beautiful place. My friend Paula runs a really economical B&B on the west side of the city, the B&B Paula. It is a bit out of town but she will loan you a bike, probably mine, to get to town or to the beach. You will love that Zandvoort topless beach, and bottomless at the southern end. Bring the book that nukesafe used and you might never come home.

D_W, you may want to click my name and scroll down through my trip reports until you find one called "Haarlem, a brilliant choice...." The title gives away my opinion, but I think there are things in there that IMO will help put things in perspective.

Getting from Haarlem to Amsterdam is no big deal and not particularly time consuming. A 10 minute walk to the station from the center and 4 trains each hour. The ride itself is 15 minutes.
Also, hotels cost significantly less in Haarlem than Amsterdam for similar quality.

Another vote for Haarlem. I spent a week there and loved it.

Annhig, spaarne, basingstoke2 and irishface,

I am thankful for each of your opinions; I'm leaning toward Haarlem after having read each of your thoughts. Although annhig, your words that I'd be missing a lot not staying in Amsterdam have not sat with me un-noticed...I do appreciate your different take on things.

I remember being happy (and perhaps happier?) staying in Hampstead rather than central London as I found central London TOO overwhelming at times; fine for a look, but I preferred being out a bit. Then again, staying in Philadelphia, I think I wouldn't enjoy it as much if I were not in Center City, so I can understand both points of view.

Thanks again to each of you, Daniel

Whichever you decide upon if you want to meet up let me know, you can practice your Dutch on an English woman then .

[email protected]

If you really want to practice don't spend all your time in Haarlem, Amsterdam and the tourist traps. Get out into small town Netherlands.

Hetismij,

Vooraf, ik vind het veel leuk dat je mijn slecht nederlands wilt horen. Ik beloof beter te zijn wanneer ik Haarlem of Amsterdam bezoek!

Dank je wel en tot schrijfs, Daniel

(Mijn excuses: De woorden die boven en hier zijn, deed ik niet met een woordenboek. Ik hoop dat er weinig vergissingen zijn. )

UPDATE--

I wanted to thank you all for your advice. I'm now booked for first four nights at a B&B in Haarlem, three nights at a hotel in Amsterdam and then the final three nights back at the B&B in Haarlem. Might seem an odd way to proceed, but my Haarlem digs are so much less expensive than the $$$ hotels in Amsterdam (I'd write Euro Euro Euro but I can't seem to find that on my keyboard), that it makes sense to me to split the trip this way. Plus, I'm staying in Amsterdam following the advice of annhig and a few friends, who told me I would be making a mistake to not spend some nights there.

Well, when I called the B&B, I decided I would start off in Dutch, in my mind to show respect. "Goede dag, m'n naam is Daniel en ik zou een slaapkamer in juni willen reserveren." ~Eng. "Hello, my name is Daniel and I'd like to book a room in June."~

I imagine that I've learned my pronunciation decently enough that he came back to me in Dutch (I wasn't expecting that!). My pronunciation may be convincing but I have a long way to go with oral comprehension... I only caught snippets... "vrouw" "Bed & Breakfast", my brain was reeling to try to piece together meaning. So I then went with my pre-planned line "kan je frans of engels spreken?" ~Eng. "Can you speak English or French?"~

Based on my research and what everyone had told me, I had just assumed I would hear someone with perfect English for whom an anglophone tourist is a boring, regular occurrence, so I truly was not prepared for the next string of events. The gentleman gives a kind laugh and says "my English is not so good" with the good sounding like "goed" in Dutch starting with that characteristic Dutch guttural g.

He then proceeds in Dutch (so not expecting this) and my ears are in overdrive. I catch words but far from the full meaning... "vrouw" "Bed & Breakfast" "gasten" "moet haar" "telefoonnummer" "opbellen" "haar mobieltje" "aan de website". I'm not sure if I caught other words but I understood that it was his wife that I was to call; that she was the one who took care of the everything related to the Bed & Breakfast. "E-mail is beter?" I ask; he says things, a few that I catch, most that I miss but I do catch "bel haar op" "aan (or was he saying the English on?) haar mobieltje". I gather e-mail's ok but he wants me to call her on her cell phone. As I'm thinking what's her cell-phone number I see a second number on the website "ik zie een nummer aan de website; is dit de telefoonnummer", I stammer and I read the numbers back to him in Dutch. "Ja, ja, dat is het." I thank him, tell him I'll call her and call his wife a few minutes later.

After my intro in Dutch, the wife says she does speak English. However, when I apologize (in Dutch) that my Dutch is not better and explain I've only studied (about) a year, she speaks to me some in Dutch (reading back the dates of my visit, things I can understand). When I write her a confirmatory e-mail in Dutch, she writes back in Dutch and says she thinks I speak and write well for only having studied a year. My reading comprehension thankfully is better than my oral comprehension.

Needless to say, I'm over the moon! It looks like I'm going to get exactly what I was hoping for... an opportunity to practice my Dutch with this kind-seeming older couple.

Thank you all again, Daniel

Daniel - so impressed!

Thats great about your language accomplishments - good on you. You will find it to be an asset in your travels when you cycle to the smaller towns and villages, having access to places and things most tourists never see.

I know its still months away, but best wishes for a wonderful trip - Holland is beautiful and one of my favourite destinations (I've been 3 times to different parts - each time only for a few days unfortunately).
Looking forward to a trip report about your cycling adventures (I recall reading your other reports and they were very interesting) and hope you take lots of pictures and will post a few. It's a beautiful country.

bookmarking

Thank you Mathieu, annhig, saraho,

I do look forward to doing some cycling also in a country known for terrific cycling opportunities!

Best wishes, Daniel

Daniel,

As you probably already know, Holland is notoriously flat (in part because so much land area - polderland - has been recovered from the sea) and therefore makes cycling great distances in a few hours easier to accomplish, and therefore to see more.
I remember my Grade 11 Geography teacher telling us that it's so flat, you could stand on a chair and see the borders, lol !

Make the most (and the best) of it.

Daniel, En wat, alstublieft, is de naam van het Haarlem B&B hotel dat in het Nederlands zij met u willen praten? I wil ook graag dus een hotel!

Goede dag ObiMomKenobi,

De B&B heet Isis; zij hebben maar twee slaapkamers.

Heb een geweldige reis! Daniel

Daniel, you'll be spoilt for choice, cycling from Haarlem. Haarlemmer Hout is a beautiful area, and the Kennmerduinen and Waterleiding Duinen area is equally beautiful. Consider visiting Leiden, Den Haag. The Netherlands may be flat, but a strong south westerly wind mostly keeps cyclists back!

Having stayed in Amsterdam on two separate trips, we decided to stay in Haarlem on our most recent visit in 2010. We happened to be there on Queen's Day (koninginnedag) and enjoyed celebrating in the streets well into the night. It's April 30 this year.

Heads up: There's a wonderful ice cream shop built into the side of the cathedral. Enjoy a dish of cinnamon for me.

Veilige reis

Betsy - It's April 30th every year, unless that falls on a Sunday when it is April 29th.