Dawn

I may be wrong, but I don't think that all gypsies are Romanian. Has the whole world gone Politically Correct? Give me a break!

Ginny

OK Susan - what do you want me to call the people who attacked my husband? You know, you just can't please anyone anymore can you? No matter what you say, someone always takes offense when no offense was intended. BUT - I tell you this much, I TOOK OFFENSE WHEN THEY ATTACKED MY HUSBAND! So, say what you will.

dan

As I understand Susan's post, I think she is right. Anytime you say that there is a "problem" associated with any ethnic group or race, it can be offensive, and if you are in a position of power and start thinking this way, it can sometimes be dangerous. I don't think anyone meant it that way here, but some people will see it that way. It would be like looking at statistics from New York City, for example, and seeing that a higher proportion of African-Americans are involved in crimes than white citizens (I don't know this - only an example), you start talking about a "black problem." It doesn't mean you should not discuss or deal with the issues (although many will take it to this point), but the way you define it can be important in how it appears to others and how you deal with it. What I have seen is that there are many Rom in some areas (Hungary for example, where they are really despised by many people), who do seem to be involved in thefts. However, I do not know what percentage of the population of Rom is involved in thefts. Even if I did I think it is always a bad practice to carry this thinking to the point of being afraid of everyone I meet. I think you will find that the theives who are Rom are only some of the more visible theives because of their appearances, but still non-Rom theives are more numerous almost anywhere you go. So be careful whether you see Rom or not. But above all, do have a good time!

dAWN

Even 60 Minutes did a report on this maybe 5 years ago, and they used the term "gypsies". I guess I fail to understand why this is deemed a racist term. Believe me, the gypsy problem is a fairly big problem in Europe, and you have to be blind not to notice. I large amount of street crime is associated with gypsies and that is a fact. On every trip I've made to Europe, I've either known or seen someone robbed or acosted by gypsies. People are so afraid to say anything about anyone who is not of the same ethnicity, even if there are dead wrong and doing something bad. This has gotten ridiculous. This forum is to educate all the participants who log onto it. I've learned alot in the past few months. If I can save one person from being victimized, well than I feel I am contributing something to this forum. UInless this has happened to you, maybe you can't understand why it is a problem. You can't judge unless you've been there.

martha

Dawn, I admit I don't know the origin of the term Rom (or Roma) in the plural. You're right, they aren't originally from Romania but northern India. And you don't have to call them Roma if you don't want to, but a lot of people on this list are concerned about being sensitive to other cultures (or maybe just European cultures), and I thought those people might want to know the term the people themselves prefer.

Richard

ZZZZZZZZZZ <BR> <BR>enough....

John

I have to agree with Susan that "identifying the problem as "Gypsies" is racist and offensive". The problem of theft is not exclusively due to the gypsy or Roma people and it is an unjustice to perpetuate ths belief. This is not to say that many Roma are not involved in such activites, but it isn't fair to give the impression that all Roma do. Much of the theft in Europe is done by the local natives. <BR> <BR>As for who the Roma are or where they originally came from, it is generally accepted that they came out of Northwestern India. The Roma migrated as early as the 5th century. A major migration is thought to have ocurred in the early 800's when the Muslims invaded Northern India. Several other migrations took place between the 10th and 13th centuries in retreat from the advance of Islam. <BR> <BR>The migration of the Roma reached Southeastern Europe in the early 1300's, Central/Eastern Europe in the 1400's and in Western and Northern Europe in the late 1400's and early 1500's. <BR> <BR>The Roma have a long history of persecution wherever they roamed and some believe it is because they were confused with muslim invaders. Whatever the reasons, laws were enacted against them wherever they went They have been uniformly rejected, mistrusted, feared, banished enslaved, tortured and even murdered. The Nazi's exterminated hundreds of thousands of them. <BR> <BR>Even in America, some states have enacted laws forbidding the Roma from staying. In Britain, Roma can only stop legally on government reservations. In France, they are required tocarry passes that must be stamped by the police in each parrish. <BR> <BR>Apparently, since the Roma have been forced to keep moving and forbidden to do business with shopkeepers, the Roma have been forced to rely on theft to be able to subsist. <BR>

dan

Actually, I was with someone who was a victim of theft on a Budapest subway (she said it was a "Gypsy"), and I had a business professor in college who had a Roma or Gypsy (or whatever you choose to call them), take his wallet in Prague. I too have been accosted by them in Prague and Strasbourg among other places. I never said that individuals do not pose a problem, but I do not believe that you should condemn a whole group based on this. The closest, at least that I know of, that I ever came to being actually robbed was by a local in Paris away from the tourist sites. <BR> <BR>If someone thinks he/she can avoid theft just by avoiding "Gypsies," I think you are making a mistake. <BR> <BR>We can discuss any travel issue you want here, and all are welcome to their opinions. If everyone agreed, it would get pretty boring.

dan

Actually, I was with someone who was a victim of theft on a Budapest subway (she said it was a "Gypsy"), and I had a business professor in college who had a Roma or Gypsy (or whatever you choose to call them), take his wallet in Prague. I too have been accosted by them in Prague and Strasbourg among other places. I never said that individuals do not pose a problem, but I do not believe that you should condemn a whole group based on this. The closest, at least that I know of, that I ever came to being actually robbed was by a local in Paris away from the tourist sites. <BR> <BR>If someone thinks he/she can avoid theft just by avoiding "Gypsies," I think you are making a mistake. <BR> <BR>We can discuss any travel issue you want here, and all are welcome to their opinions. If everyone agreed, it would get pretty boring.

Richard

this post has gotten too political.

Dawn

I never in many of my postings have said that gypsies were the only ones responsible for the street crime/theft problem. As I have stated before there are professional crooks working throughout Europe (the world for that matter)but we're only dealing with Europe here. The difference between the gypsies and the other crooks is that the gypsies stand out, and are notorious in their methods. There are many other criminals working the streets. Beware of individuals on vespas also. Last summer, while in Naples, we were coming back to our hotel from a wedding reception, and had an elderly woman within our party. As we were walking across the street a vespa came by (very fast) grabbed her purse, and knocking her to the ground. We spent the next 4 hours in the hospital. She was o.k., was a bit bruised and bloodied, and scared. Something like this can put a real damper on your vacation. Just be careful and always on your guard. The minute you let your guard down is when something will happen. It saddens me that this is the way things are, but this is a fact of life. It may never happen to you, and I hope it doesn't but it happens to thousands every day. If you are like me and love Europe and travel, which is why you post here, it may eventually happen to you. Just be careful and take care.

Debbie

Just call them thieves! On a recent trip to Florence,a nicely dressed couple in Armani type suits- <BR>cut a woman's purse from the side in the gift shop of the Accademia(DAVID's place)and stole the entire content without her knowledge or anyone else in the giftshop.So remember to be careful no matter where you are and know whats going on around you!Happy trails! Debbie <BR>

lisa

Aren't Roma also called "travellers" in some places? I think I heard that term used when I was in England. Just out of curiosity and for my own education, is that also considered offensive? <BR>I do agree that groups should be referred to by the term they themselves prefer, and that branding all members of a group as thieves based on the reputation of some is dangerous. I also agree that pickpockets are a problem in many places; that pickpockets come in all shapes, sizes, and ethnicities; and that not all Roma are pickpockets. However, given the vast scope and high frequency of this problem in some areas, simply referring to Roma pickpockets as "thieves" ignores the cultural component of this problem, and identifying the specific patterns often used by Roma as "60 Minutes" did (e.g. the woman holding the baby and newspaper) can be helpful in avoiding being victimized (even though I agree that they surely experience discrimination which must make it more difficult for them to obtain traditional forms of employment; obviously this is a vicious cycle to which both the Roma and society as a whole contribute: discrimination=no jobs=petty theft=more discrimination). <BR>I am a bleeding heart liberal and a firm believer in political correctness, but as long as the terminology used isn't offensive (and I apologize for previously using the term "gypsy"; I was ignorant of its connotations), I don't think ignoring the ethnic or cultural aspect of this problem helps anyone. <BR>Roma pickpockets and petty thieves exist. The problem is pervasive enough that a national television newsmagazine did a feature on it. Discussing this problem should be no different from policy discussions about Americans underperforming in math and science compared to the Japanese, or, for that matter, other discussions on this forum regarding cultural stereotypes like "French rudeness" or how Americans don't know how to dress compared to Europeans. There are cultural aspects to certain issues, and sometimes you can't discuss or even identify the issue without identifying the culture you're talking about. For those who think this discussion is too political, I for one don't think we should be afraid to talk about these things. Discussing this stuff is how we all learn. <BR>I know I've learned a lot. Thanks, everybody.

Kavey(nee Gupta)

Lisa <BR> <BR>You summed up what I was thinking really well, thankyou, your post was a pleasure to read. <BR> <BR>I feel that there _IS_ a problem, and that fact can't be ignored. <BR> <BR>However, simplifying the problem of theft in Europe as a crime linked to one social group is unhelpful, unrealistic and racist. <BR> <BR>On the other hand, ducking ones head in the sand and pretending there is no reason to associate Roma/ travellers/ gypsie groups with such theft is simply skirting the issue. <BR> <BR>Some Roma who are easily identifiable may prey on tourists. Some locals in tourist areas no doubt take advantage of this, allowing their own crimes to be blamed on these convenient scapegoats. <BR> <BR>There are many reasons why the Roma people may have to turn to crime, until I have experienced the problems they face, I can hardly make an opinion on that. However I really think it is valid for us to discuss on a forum like this how to protect ourselves from crime while we travel. <BR> <BR>To do that we need to be aware of the crimes, how they are committed, common patterns, and how to avoid them. That may mean we look at some of the ruses often used by Roma groups in certain cities. We should also look at other main groups of perpetrators such as the Vespa riders mentioned before. <BR> <BR>What I think we should avoid is the urge to assume that all Roma people are theives/ dangerous/ not willing to work. <BR> <BR>That would be like assuming all Indians work in corner grocery shops and are called Gupta

Synne

Wow. If anyone has read this far, I'm adding a cautionary anecdote about some young thieves in Florence. I knew to be aware, especially after seeing two arrests of thieves in the crowded Florentine markets. My daughter and I were walking along one morning in the middle of a narrow street when two young girls came towards me. One girl was holding a large piece of folded cardboard up to my face. While I was puzzling over what did she have, what was she doing, etc. a man yelled at them and chased them away. Click. I would have fallen right into that and later thought how clever they had been. It's just not natural to be wary of children and something like holding up cardboard is curious, not threatening.

Dan

We have encountered the gypsy proble in Florence. One was at my elbow before I knew it. I wear a police type whistle around my neck when I am in train stations, bus stations, and airports. Believe me, a quick blast and then hollering THIEF! sends them scurrying away in a hurry.

Maria

I was so scared to travel to Italy because of all the reports I was hearing about "thieves" that I wore a money belt under my black bicycle shorts (in addition to pants or skirts because I heard that they can get under your pants to take your money belt) and kept less than L100.000 in my purse wallet. My husband and I just came back after spending four weeks. WE had no problems. We're from Washington D.C, so I am always a cautious person. However, we witnessed the following, in Rome near the Spanish steps. We heard coins drop and saw them all over the ground and a young man in the middle of six older people. The older people were startled and trying to figure out whose money fell to the ground. My husband said that the young guy looked suspicious and the young guy left the crowd and started running down the street towards the metro. This young guy must have sliced open a women's purse or taken a wallet. We started walking down the street towards Trevi fountain and who did we see going in and out of a crowd of elderly people. THE YOUNG MAN--he stood out because his hair was in braids and he wore a red jacket. My husband was so upset that he started to walk towards the YM. I was shocked that he did this because you don't know what could happen. My husband started telling the YM that he knows what he is doing. The YM said "No problem" and left. My husband was pretty bold to do this but he felt better after doing this--just to warn the YM that someone was watching him. However, the next day I see the YM again at the train station. Needless to say, I was praying that he was not going to be on our train to Naples.

Donna

Let's assume that "gypsy" is a generic term for pickpockets and other thieves. Anyone traveling is well advised to read the "safety" section in several tour guides. Whatever you call them, they are very practiced at their skills and "common sense" won't protect you, as you'll be caught by surprise. So, just learn how to protect yourself and take all the precautions. Remember that they go for what's easily accessible and folks who aren't paying attention. If you make sure you're not one of those, they'll be after someone who is.

Bill

We just returned form 2 weeks in Venice and Florence. We did not have any problems. I had one of those pain in the butt moneybelts but it make life a lot better than worrying. I had a camera case that we carried my equipment in along with our bulkier things. We just made ourselves aware of the surroundings and watched out for any people around us.

Joanna

Just outside the Sforza Castle in Milan in 1994 two young girls (about 20 yrs) tried to rob my friend, holding up the usual cardboard and going for what they thought was her wallet (it was her glasses case). They could have been "gypsies" or they could have been locals. They had longish black hair and were reasonably well dressed. I shouted and they moved away pretty quickly. The visible "gypsies" usually seem to have scarves on their heads and sit outside churches begging with small children. I saw another small "gypsy" girl busking outside Strasbourg Cathedral. While I am aware they are involved in petty crimes I do feel sorry for them. They are in a vicious circle of poverty and lack of education that really should be addressed by the European governments.