guilt trip: shall we all stay home this year
May 23rd, 2006, 05:44 AM
#44
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Here's another interesting article on flying and its environmental effects:
<i>"Is it OK to fly?"</i>
http://tinyurl.com/s6uvn
<i>"Is it OK to fly?"</i>
http://tinyurl.com/s6uvn
May 23rd, 2006, 06:20 AM
#45
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Ok, I accept that the earth is warming up, but how much of that is actually due to what humans are doing and how much is due to the natural changes in climate that have been going on since the earth began? In the 70s the experts were saying that we were entering an Ice Age because polution was blocking the sun. Now, polution is warming the planet.
Hey! maybe humanity really isn't as powerful as people want to believe. Maybe stuff happens that we can't control. Feel guilty, if you want. Feel self-righteous, if you want.
Hey! maybe humanity really isn't as powerful as people want to believe. Maybe stuff happens that we can't control. Feel guilty, if you want. Feel self-righteous, if you want.
May 27th, 2006, 12:10 PM
#46
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There is very few people who disagree that the world is warming and that man is contributing to this. Here in the Uk there are almost daily reports in the serious and not so serious newspapers about this and how it can be prevented. Similarly, very few days go by without it being mentioned on UK television. I wonder how much coverage it gets elsewhere. My original message also posted on the US Forum received only 7 replies in comparison to 47 here - but there may be reasons other than apathy for this.
May 27th, 2006, 12:49 PM
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In the 70s many respected geologists and scientists predicted that we will run out of oil by 2000-2010.
well that prediction is coming true.....NOT!!!
and each year since our (meaning the world) thirst for oil doubled, quadrupled.......
hmm, I would love to talk to these "specialists" today.....
well that prediction is coming true.....NOT!!!
and each year since our (meaning the world) thirst for oil doubled, quadrupled.......
hmm, I would love to talk to these "specialists" today.....
May 27th, 2006, 12:57 PM
#48
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In Australia even our recalcitrant prime minister and his lackeys are finally conceding that we might just have a problem on our hands. The penny has dropped.
There are still those who prefer to pretend that nothing's happening, or if it is there's nothing we can do about it, but their number is shrinking rapidly.
What's really interesting is the anger some people display whenever the subject is brought up. I think this stems from the fact that if you remain in a state of denial about this and other global problems you avoid the uncomfortable feeling that you should be doing something about it, either personally or collectively.
In particular, the possibility that personal sacrifices will be forced on us can be deeply disturbing. Driving a smaller car or using public transport, reduced access to overseas travel, much more expensive house heating and cooling - not a pretty picture for those of us brought up in times of plenty.
Ironically, spiralling oil prices may just do the trick. Sales of large cars and SUVs have crashed here in the last year, and Sydney public transport patronage has increased by 160,000 passengers a day. Imagine what will happen when (not if) we (and Americans) have to pay European prices for our petrol.
There are still those who prefer to pretend that nothing's happening, or if it is there's nothing we can do about it, but their number is shrinking rapidly.
What's really interesting is the anger some people display whenever the subject is brought up. I think this stems from the fact that if you remain in a state of denial about this and other global problems you avoid the uncomfortable feeling that you should be doing something about it, either personally or collectively.
In particular, the possibility that personal sacrifices will be forced on us can be deeply disturbing. Driving a smaller car or using public transport, reduced access to overseas travel, much more expensive house heating and cooling - not a pretty picture for those of us brought up in times of plenty.
Ironically, spiralling oil prices may just do the trick. Sales of large cars and SUVs have crashed here in the last year, and Sydney public transport patronage has increased by 160,000 passengers a day. Imagine what will happen when (not if) we (and Americans) have to pay European prices for our petrol.
May 27th, 2006, 05:24 PM
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I have not contributed to world population by having children. I live in the Caribbean without air conditioning & am cooled by smart placement of my living quarters to maximize exposure to tradewinds. I rely solely on rain & a cistern for my water. Therefore, I will still go to London every year guiltfree. 
May 27th, 2006, 09:04 PM
#51
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There is general agreement that the planet has warmed up very slightly in the last decade or so.
Anyone who tells you that there is general agreement that human activity is a significant factor in this warming is either a liar or uninformed. There is no such concensus.
The planet has been far warmer in the not so distant past than it is today. Notably in the Middle ages. Were the high temperatures then caused by the pollution emissions from Vikings water skiing or Richard the Lionheart driving a gas guzzling horse?
We are simply experiencing a warming cycle that occurs over multi-century time spans and has been demonstrated to have occurred many times in the past when humans could not have been the cause.
Man may be the measure of all things but he is not the cause of all things.
But the leaders of the global warming movement know this. Their arguments are entirely political and completely dishonest. Their SOLE purpose is to attack capitalism in general and the United States in particular. Their ilk previously predicted that, among other things, the world would soon be a frozen ball of ice (the Global Cooling propaganda campaign) and that there would be a total world economic collapse with mass starvation and billions dead in 2000.
Pay no attention to them.
Anyone who tells you that there is general agreement that human activity is a significant factor in this warming is either a liar or uninformed. There is no such concensus.
The planet has been far warmer in the not so distant past than it is today. Notably in the Middle ages. Were the high temperatures then caused by the pollution emissions from Vikings water skiing or Richard the Lionheart driving a gas guzzling horse?
We are simply experiencing a warming cycle that occurs over multi-century time spans and has been demonstrated to have occurred many times in the past when humans could not have been the cause.
Man may be the measure of all things but he is not the cause of all things.
But the leaders of the global warming movement know this. Their arguments are entirely political and completely dishonest. Their SOLE purpose is to attack capitalism in general and the United States in particular. Their ilk previously predicted that, among other things, the world would soon be a frozen ball of ice (the Global Cooling propaganda campaign) and that there would be a total world economic collapse with mass starvation and billions dead in 2000.
Pay no attention to them.
May 28th, 2006, 04:44 AM
#52
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Rillifane clearly illustrates Neil_Oz's point about angry denial.
Rillifane, I respectfully point you to this article:
<i>"The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change"</i>:
http://tinyurl.com/5fdqg
and another:
<i>"The Debate is Over"</i>
http://tinyurl.com/f7nkl
Rillifane, I respectfully point you to this article:
<i>"The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change"</i>:
http://tinyurl.com/5fdqg
and another:
<i>"The Debate is Over"</i>
http://tinyurl.com/f7nkl
May 28th, 2006, 07:50 AM
#53
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We should pay more attention to what people do and less to what they say.
I will believe that our environmental leaders and Hollywood stars are really concerned about global warming when they stop flying in private planes and downsize their houses.
In the meantime, I'm flying.
I will believe that our environmental leaders and Hollywood stars are really concerned about global warming when they stop flying in private planes and downsize their houses.
In the meantime, I'm flying.
May 28th, 2006, 08:05 AM
#54
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I think that one of the best things we can do to help the poor is to first understand their humanity and to understand how their situation came to be.
For instance, instead of assuming that all homeless people choose their lot, or ignoring them altogether, why not buy them something to eat or give them information on a program that can help them.
When you have a little bit to give, why not do so? I saw beggars on the streets in Italy and I remembered how some posters on here made some comments about ignoring them and how they are scam artists. Personally, the man without any legs did not look like a scam artist to me, so I gave him a couple of euro. The old woman was, well, older than myself and I felt it bad that she should have to sit on the street asking for change. She got a euro or two. And the lady that had the little bird who chose a horoscope for you, well that was just tooo trippy and I gave her a euro and took the horoscope. I still have to translate it, though. But the little money I gave did not hurt me to give so....I could have easily spent that on a panini or gelato or something.
I would not suggest to stopping travel. Instead, perhaps be more aware of the people that live in the places you travel to. See all of the people, and not just the glitzy touristy areas.
I am sure that all of our transit options are increasing air pollution. I do feel that there are other more pressing issues other than global warming that we should focus on in the here and now. Such as food, medical supplies, housing, education, stopping the genocide in Dafur, helping our citizens in Louisiana, etc.
For instance, instead of assuming that all homeless people choose their lot, or ignoring them altogether, why not buy them something to eat or give them information on a program that can help them.
When you have a little bit to give, why not do so? I saw beggars on the streets in Italy and I remembered how some posters on here made some comments about ignoring them and how they are scam artists. Personally, the man without any legs did not look like a scam artist to me, so I gave him a couple of euro. The old woman was, well, older than myself and I felt it bad that she should have to sit on the street asking for change. She got a euro or two. And the lady that had the little bird who chose a horoscope for you, well that was just tooo trippy and I gave her a euro and took the horoscope. I still have to translate it, though. But the little money I gave did not hurt me to give so....I could have easily spent that on a panini or gelato or something.
I would not suggest to stopping travel. Instead, perhaps be more aware of the people that live in the places you travel to. See all of the people, and not just the glitzy touristy areas.
I am sure that all of our transit options are increasing air pollution. I do feel that there are other more pressing issues other than global warming that we should focus on in the here and now. Such as food, medical supplies, housing, education, stopping the genocide in Dafur, helping our citizens in Louisiana, etc.
May 28th, 2006, 08:36 AM
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Rillifane,
Are you the director of the current US administration's EPA? If not, please apply. You meet the most important qualifications. Maybe you are an oil company exec?
Neil OZ,
Unfortunately far too many folks in the USA have absolutely NO access to public transportation in any form. Too many of us have migrated to the suburbs, bought multiple vehicles, and allowed our leaders to rip-out existing rails lines. At the same time, our privately owned vehicles have made mass transit a luxury our leaders (and ourselves) can/will not pay for.
30+ years after the first oil embargo(s) and not a single US leader has developed and implemented an effective energy policy to get the US to energy independence. That shouldn't necessarily mean we all have to give up our way of life (freedom of using our POVs), that is just one of the scare tactics used by the oil lobby and the closed-minded "global warming doesn't exist" crowd. If we stopped using fossil fuels for power generation and packaging EVERYTHING in plastic, we would go a long way to reducing emissions and even further dwindling the world's supply of fossil fuels.
MvK
Are you the director of the current US administration's EPA? If not, please apply. You meet the most important qualifications. Maybe you are an oil company exec?
Neil OZ,
Unfortunately far too many folks in the USA have absolutely NO access to public transportation in any form. Too many of us have migrated to the suburbs, bought multiple vehicles, and allowed our leaders to rip-out existing rails lines. At the same time, our privately owned vehicles have made mass transit a luxury our leaders (and ourselves) can/will not pay for.
30+ years after the first oil embargo(s) and not a single US leader has developed and implemented an effective energy policy to get the US to energy independence. That shouldn't necessarily mean we all have to give up our way of life (freedom of using our POVs), that is just one of the scare tactics used by the oil lobby and the closed-minded "global warming doesn't exist" crowd. If we stopped using fossil fuels for power generation and packaging EVERYTHING in plastic, we would go a long way to reducing emissions and even further dwindling the world's supply of fossil fuels.
MvK
May 28th, 2006, 05:30 PM
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Neil Oz,
I visited your country back in 1982 and found it to be more like the USA than anyplace except Canada. Suburbs where everyone MUST have a car but the mass transit in the major cities was acceptable. We have structured our societies so that a car isn't a luxury but an absolute necessity in far too many situations.
I wonder what percentage of us in the USA actually have access to decent and reliable public transportation. I'll bet someone in this forum can give a reasonable and accurate answer.
MvK
I visited your country back in 1982 and found it to be more like the USA than anyplace except Canada. Suburbs where everyone MUST have a car but the mass transit in the major cities was acceptable. We have structured our societies so that a car isn't a luxury but an absolute necessity in far too many situations.
I wonder what percentage of us in the USA actually have access to decent and reliable public transportation. I'll bet someone in this forum can give a reasonable and accurate answer.
MvK
May 28th, 2006, 05:39 PM
#58
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I don't know the percentage of the population in the US that has decent access to public transportation but I sure know that 100% of the population of the city that I live in does not!
Decades ago there was some decent public transportation but those days are gone.
I grew up in the SF/Bay Area and since my family only had one auto my mother and I and other family members used public transportation all of the time. We had one auto but my father didn't even have to use it to get to work which was about 30 miles away as there was a shuttle bus he utilized.
I get so angry when politicians blame us for our gasoline usage..as though we have a choice!
Decades ago there was some decent public transportation but those days are gone.
I grew up in the SF/Bay Area and since my family only had one auto my mother and I and other family members used public transportation all of the time. We had one auto but my father didn't even have to use it to get to work which was about 30 miles away as there was a shuttle bus he utilized.
I get so angry when politicians blame us for our gasoline usage..as though we have a choice!
May 28th, 2006, 06:14 PM
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Cities to some extent must be designed with mass transportation in mind. Cities that grew up after automobiles were invented tend not to be in this category.
There are still some options. Extensive bus service can be implemented in many communities that are too spread out for subways or trams. Beyond a certain point, though, individual vehicles are mandatory; the only option then is to redesign the city.
Of course, nothing forces anyone to live in a city without mass transportation. I used to live in such a place, but I moved to a city that was just the opposite, with one of the best mass-transit networks in the world. I don't even have a car now.
In any case, if operation of personal vehicles becomes too expensive, cities that depend on such vehicles will empty. We are still very far from that point today, though; and even if gasoline becomes rare, there are other types of personal vehicles that could run on other forms of energy.
Just be glad that we have what we have. In the olden days, there were no vehicles of any kind, and large cities were cesspools of horse manure and urine. The automobile saved places like New York, which were becoming unlivable thanks to horses.
There are still some options. Extensive bus service can be implemented in many communities that are too spread out for subways or trams. Beyond a certain point, though, individual vehicles are mandatory; the only option then is to redesign the city.
Of course, nothing forces anyone to live in a city without mass transportation. I used to live in such a place, but I moved to a city that was just the opposite, with one of the best mass-transit networks in the world. I don't even have a car now.
In any case, if operation of personal vehicles becomes too expensive, cities that depend on such vehicles will empty. We are still very far from that point today, though; and even if gasoline becomes rare, there are other types of personal vehicles that could run on other forms of energy.
Just be glad that we have what we have. In the olden days, there were no vehicles of any kind, and large cities were cesspools of horse manure and urine. The automobile saved places like New York, which were becoming unlivable thanks to horses.
May 28th, 2006, 06:46 PM
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Was the author of this article serious or sacrastic? Didn't he know the global warming comes not from planes nor cars, but from women of the "certain age" getting hot flashes?
As for the world poor... why not to send a check to charities? So you can travel with clean conciousness?
As for the world poor... why not to send a check to charities? So you can travel with clean conciousness?
