<BR>My wife and I are planning a trip to Ireland/London for a two week stay in July or August 2000. We are both 31 and have never traveled to Europe before. We are undecided as to taking a guided tour package or winging it on our own which means booking our own air, hotel, car rental, etc. Any pro/con opinions from your particular experience would be appreciated.

The subject of: "Do I take a tour or don't I?" has been tossed around on this forum several times over the last year or two. As you might expect considerably more heat than light is sometimes focused on the subject. So you might as well expect both as various contributors respond to your question. <BR> <BR>My comments are by no means exhaustive, or comprehensive. But let me run by you a few general ideas before the other regulars chime in. <BR>(I must admit that after reading some of the retorts, rebuttals, barbs, etc., engendered by various questions, I understand why Louis XIV wanted to build Versailles and escape the Paris mob.) <BR> <BR>First on the negative side, the usual position of the anti tour faction is that the tour locks you in to a set route and daily plan. It gives you limited time for freelancing. You don't learn anything from doing your own planning, etc. And, most of all, the tour group forms sort of its own society that goes in lock step. As a result, you don't interact with the locals and, as a consequence, you miss out on some of the real charm of the environment. Moreover, if you see something you really like, you cannot pause to enjoy it because the tour is ready to move on. <BR> <BR>Second, on the positive side, with a well planned and executed tour, you know where you are going before you start because the schedule and destinations are set. Hotels are reserved, meals are planned, your luggage is often handled for you, the driving is done by someone else, and the tour bus takes you virtually to the door. As a result, time is often maximized and the tour guide provides useful commentary along the way. Also, with a tour, you don't have to fight the traffic and try to find your way in strange terriroty while driving on the wrong side of the road. Moreover, you can meet some really nice people as part of the group. <BR> <BR>I would like to say that in my experience, I have found that taking limited tours of one or two days at the most are often beneficial. <BR>These tours were selected because they took me directly to where I wanted to go economically and efficiently. <BR> <BR>Before deciding, I urge you to review several tour plans carefully. Look closely at: (1) where the tours are going, (2) how much they cost, (3)what is included, and (3) how long the tour stays at the various destinations. Also, check carefully how much free time you have for your own exploring. <BR> <BR>One thing I might add, at the time of year you are going to be in the British Isles, it is peak tourist season and scrambling for your own hotels and what not in unfamiliar territory, even if we do speak more or less the same language, can be something of an adventure. <BR> <BR>Were I planning a similar trip for myself, I would plan about 6-7 days in London on my own, and then find a tour that takes me to Ireland. I could easily burn up 7 days in London because I would include Greenwich, Windsor Castle, Hampton Court Kew Gardens, and probably Dover/Canterbury. <BR> <BR>Personally, I have free lanced my own trips to Paris and Switzerland the past two years. And I am not considering a tour for Munich, Salzburg, and Vienna in 2000. But that is my style and I feel comfortable doing it that way. <BR> <BR>In conclusion, as my wife puts it in her medical jargon: Take the patients history, listen to the symptoms, scope it all out, run some lab tests, make your diagnosis and then prescribe -- this time for yourself. After all, despite what anyone says, it is YOUR trip. So do it YOUR way! <BR> <BR>Well those are my thoughts. Now lets see who else has a reply.

Bob Brown has some wonderful, accurate insites into the dos and don'ts of each type of travel. We have always traveled on our own, usually renting a car. However, we lived overseas for 5 years, so feel very comfortable in individual "self travel". If one would not want to drive on the left side of the road (it isn't that bad at all),,then the trains are wonderful, prompt, clean in England and Ireland, and still be on your own. With a car one can stop in little towns, walk the streets, and really get to a lot more places. As Mr. Brown said though....Summer is a busy travel time and lodging is a lot tighter. ( We Always go off season and easily get better rooms at lower rates ). Individual travel does take a LOT of preparation (easily done on the internet), but that is my hobby, and if you have the time can be lots of fun. <BR>His idea of London on your own and then possibly Ireland on a tour is great....(though driving in Ireland can open up a lot of the country and access to people that a tour couldn't). If you would be comfortable that would be the way to go....I guess it ALL boils down to what you really want to do, how good you are with maps and navagating etc. <BR>

Bryan, <BR>Bob Brown has left little for anyone else to say. You've gotten a highly objective response from him. You probably won't get such objectivity from me, a highly independent traveler. Independent because I'm fully capable of determining what I want to see and experience, why I want to do so and how long I want to devote to the experience. I don't want a tour company dictating what my adventure will be. I don't want to be routed up at six, to have breakfast at 6:30 with luggage in the hall by 6:45 so buses can be boarded at 7:15, day after day after day. I want to visit places, not "see" them when "seeing" involves gaping out a bus window as you drive by a Blenheim Castle or Salisbury Cathedral. I don't want to be packed into a bus, a hotel or its dining room with a group of people in an age bracket thirty years removed from mine. Self-planning a trip can be "work" or a totally rewarding, enlightening experience in itself. <BR> <BR>Bob has given you insights regarding what to look for and expect in dealing with a tour. Do a text search here on the forum for "How do you plan your European trips?" The responses of experienced travelers who plan their own trips will give you an idea of whether you want to invest the time and energy to make an independent trip meaningful and worthwhile. <BR> <BR>Thanks to the internet, booking air travel, auto rentals, accommodations and the like is simple and expedient. Thanks to the internet, resources provided by national, regional and local tourist information offices are readily available. Thanks to the internet, websites such as Fodor's (the best by far) offer a wealth of valuable insights and information from experienced travelers who are willing to share their experiences and advice to newcomers to the delights of travel. Take advantage of the experienced travelers here; don't be afraid to ask questions. You'll receive prompt and informative responses.

Bryan, <BR>After Bob there is little to say!! He's very correct in his assessment. One thing I'd take into consideration is you ages - you guys might (I said might, don't anyone jump on me) be too young for a structured tour. Typically many tours cater more to an older group with different interests then yours might be. <BR> <BR>My husband and I are independent travelers from way back and find it very easy to but together a trip. London is the easiest of all European cities but if you do it alone make reservations far in advance for hotels as Aug. is the tourist season. Someone just asked a similar question on this Forum and several of us suggested contacting the airline of your choice and talk to their tour dept. Many have what is called "independent tours" or "hosted tours" - your air, hotel, transfers and at least one sightseeing event is included. As first time visiters this may be more to your liking. London has scads of things to do, I've been many times and there is always something new so 7 days there is easily filled up, particularly if you do a day trip to Hampton Court or Greenwich or someplace too. There are so many people on this Forum that can help you - all you need to do is ask. <BR>One thing I say to everyone that asks this question is "what are your priorities?" - if they do not match up with a tour groups schedule then do not do it. If you don't care for sturctured sightseeing, up early in the a.m. and a different hotel every day or two then it's not for you. The websites out there are fantastic for hotels, tours, even airport transfers - planning is a lot of fun really.

People who like independent travel - - especially overseas, (like the majority of the people who come here) - - are a "secret club", and we embrace new members with hearty enthusiasm. <BR> <BR>Just finding your way here is well over half the "application process" to joining our club. The only other thing you have to do is to keep asking reasonably smart questions (and there really are no dumb questions). <BR> <BR>England and Ireland have tremendous potential to be a great FIRST trip to Europe - - and I'm not even all that knowledgeable about much of what these two countries have to offer. With any luck, there will be many more trips, and more and different countries before your thirties, forties and beyond are over. <BR> <BR>And by the way, if you go on a tour package, you can still join the club in the future. We all hope that you will come to love Europe travel (independent or not) as much as we do. <BR> <BR>Seasons greetings, <BR> <BR>Rex

Bryan, <BR> <BR>Just a few more cents! Since you have found this forum, you obviously have great initiative and don't mind doing some research for your trip. That's the main reason I see people using tour groups - they are either too busy, too lazy or just don't care enough to do the planning themselves. My husband and I are both in our late 20s, and we have never used a guided tour. I still love to look through their brochures and use those as a guide when planning my own. <BR> <BR>Lori has an excellent point about your ages - most others in your tour will probably be retired, unless you pick one of the groups that cater to those under 35. I'm not sure how much fun you would have since you will see the others in your group much, much more than you will any sights in Europe. Plus, you will be etaing all your meals with these people. <BR> <BR>If you do decide to book a tour, do yourself a fgavor and read through their "itinerary" very carefully. While they may promise you can see Salisbury, Bath, Avebury, Wincester, Oxford, Blenheim Palace, the Cotswolds, Stratford-upon-Avon and probably even Warwick Castle, too, all in one day, you probably only get off the bus once or twice, and thats for your lunch and dinner. That can seem appealing when you are trying to plan out your own trip and find you can only do one or two or those activities per day. But that all depends on what you are looking for out of your trip. For some, that can be enough. For others, they would like at least a few hours, maybe even a half-day or even a full day or two in those places. <BR> <BR>Since you are both young, and proficient with the internet, I'd recommend you do the trip planning yourselves.

Lots of good advice so far. In the end, it's much more dependent on your interests and abilities than our opinions. <BR> <BR>Certainly 'booking our own ...' shouldn't be an issue. While it's admittedly difficult to find an excellent travel agent well versed in travel to Europe, there _are_ many, and they can take care of ( or be a big help with ) these items. <BR> <BR>Real issues are things like how much independence you want, your budget, your tastes, how you'll relate to your bus mates, how much of a 'European' experience you want. <BR> <BR>Extensive list of pros and cons that will at least help you with your decision at http://twenj.com/pkgtours.htm <BR> <BR>www.TWEnJ.com <BR>Trip Planning: Tips, Tools and Resources <BR>

I don't think I came close to saying it all!! I would like to add that on our first family trip to London, with a 16 year son, we took advantage of a group tour that provided 1. flight over, 2. bus to the hotel, 3. 8 nights in the Tara Hotel, and 4. flight home. <BR>Everything else was your choice. <BR>There were plenty of day tours leaving the hotel for those who wanted to be hauled about. Our son's ideas did not always coincide with ours. I had no reservations about sending him off with some new found friends to Bath, Salisbury, and Stonehenge on such a tour while Mom and Dad did something else. <BR>So a group type of tour that leaves freedom of choice can help with some of the details, like transportation and hotel, but it does not restrict your daily movement. We were locked into 8 nights at the Tara, or none at all. So we could have made our own plans, but the prices were unbeatable.

Hi - <BR> <BR>I took my first trip to Europe (England, Scotland and Wales) this June, by myself, independently and loved it. I was able to do what I wanted to do when I wanted to. I booked all my hotels in advance over the internet- had no problems at all. I got a Britrail pass, so did all my traveling by rail including a day trip to Paris. Have fun, whatever you decide. <BR>Martha <BR> <BR>

I've been to Ireland twice and both times have gone on my own. It was wonderful. I didn't find driving to be any real problem after getting used to it. The only thing I would see as a downfall for a "take it as it comes" vacation in Ireland for you is the fact that you are going in the summer months. You might find the accommodations would not be as easy to just walk into as they are in the early spring/late fall. Did I help at all there? Probably not. Have fun!

Just to add my cent's worth - it is a waste of money to take a tour for thw whole time you are in either country. Since you both speak the language of the countries you will be visiting get out and do it yourself - identifying you main interests - eg be they historic castle, beautiful scenery, traditional crafts etc and then limit yourself. The time you will be travellling will be peak season and I would, if you are planning a return trip to either country again, avoid the main tourist attractions and hit the road and spend your valueable time seeing the country rather than lining up to get into Buckingham Palace or the Book of Kells (Dublin). All the major cities are over touristed in Jluy and August especially London, Dublin and Galway. But if you want to see the main sight and do not plan on returning to either country then maybe a guided tours (with immediate access to major sites) might be best. Stick to native tour companies in both countries rather than international chains - CIE in Ireland are excellent. Cheap flights between countries can be got from ryanair - www.ryanair.ie - better than sailing and quicker and cheaper. In Ireland Try the following - <BR>Dublin - The Book of Kells, Guinness Brewery, Writers Musuem et al, North Co Meath - Hill of Tara, Boyne Valley, Oldcastle, Lough Crew ancient passage graves, traditional music in Ceili House Bar in Oldcastle, Belfast - the Peace <BR>Process tours etc. Galway - the place to meet other tourists, Kilkenny is a nicer city and has a beautiful castle Kerry - the scenery and the rain, Cork - the atmosphere, Jameson Whiskey Tour, Wicklow - Glendalough and the Wicklow Mountains, Waterford - the Waterford Crystal Tour,

I would highly suggest that you book your own air, hotel and car. This allows you the flexibility of seeing only those things that you want to see while you are in Ireland and England. Unfortunately, when you take a guided tour, you are sometimes forced to see places adn things that you might not be interested in seeing. A good guide book such as "Fodor's" and some planning is all that you really need. The use of a knowledgable travel agent who specializes in Ireland/England is very helpful. I have taken guided tours to Ireland and have also driven there on my own. The people are friendly and it was fun seeing some of the places off of the beaten path. I have only been to London once and would suggest a single day-long tour to get acclaimated. Thereafter, you will know what you want to see and should be fine on your own.

We have never taken a tour and are quite comfortable being independent travelers. We spent three weeks in Ireland in April and rented a car. My husband, who is in his sixties, did well after a day or two of white-knuckling it...so I'm sure you "kids" won't have trouble. <BR>We stayed in B&Bs and Guest Houses. The first day we were standing at a phone booth looking perplexed and a kind woman recommended a B&B. After that we would tell the hostess where we were going next and she would recommend a place. We were never steered wrong. The Irish are wonderful! <BR>Be sure to contact the Irish Tourist Board; they will send you lots of good information. <BR>My vote is to plan your tour on your own.Fodorites are quite willing to help you. Have fun! <BR>

My two cents...I've always enjoyed independent travel but do what you're comfortable with. When I was 24 and single I took Contiki tours for 15 days to England, Scotland and Ireland mainly because I just didn't have the time to research (pre-Internet) and had a great time. My advice is to find a tour operator/travel agent that can book your flights, rooms, etc., and take local day tours while in-country. I agree with most about Ireland but would add Killarny as a great central point to stay and day trips to Ring of Kerry, Cliffs of Moher and Rock of Cashel. Also, even though I had NO interest in it at the time, the Waterford Crystal tour is fascinating.

This is one those "know yourself" questions, and they're pesky because you never know until you've tried it. I was intimidated by the thought of Europe the first time (England and Scotland in '80) but didn't think I'd like tours, so we comprised. We were on our own most of the time but took a several day bus tour of the Lake District. The trip was glorious except for the tour, which was a little flat. Many trips later we've never done a tour again. <BR> <BR>The advice here is all good, and you can gauge your own interests by how you travel in the U.S. Have you ever taken a tour here? Do you like to read guides & plan trips (something of a necessity if you go on your own.)? Does travel energize you or wear you out (if it's strongly the latter then tours may be the way to go)? My guess is that anyone who has real concerns about the herd, limiting, all-Americans-together aspects of tours is a natural independent; while people who actively dislike the logistics of travel (as opposed to finding them a little scary, which is natural at first)will be comfortable on tours.