We're in the planning stages of a trip to Greece and Turkey in October. Some of the places we'd like to include in the trip are Istanbul, Ephesus, Cappadocia, Myra, Rhodes, Crete, Santorini, and Athens. Not all of these are along the coasts, so we'll probably need to combine a land and sea trip. <BR>We're looking for suggestions from those who have taken such a trip on the following topics: <BR>Other areas/sights worth seeing in Greece and Turkey not mentioned above; <BR>Is it best to arrange a complete cruise, with separate land arrangements on the front and tail ends of the trip?; <BR>Is it better to make this a mostly-land trip with small ships or ferries between islands? <BR>Any other advice? <BR>The length of the trip is not critical (anywhere from 2 weeks to a month would be easy for me to do). Also, we generally don't go on cruises for the "cruise"; we consider this a trip, rather than a vacation, and would use a cruise ship mainly for transportation between destinations, rather than as a destination itself. <BR>Also, October isn't cast in concrete. We're flexible as to when we can take this trip, although our experience has shown October to be the best month to travel almost anywhere. <BR>Tahnks for any help you can provide.

Depends on how much time and money you have. Istanbul, Ephesus and Cappadocia are a pretty fair slice of 'must see' Turkey. You could devote anything from a couple of days to a week (some would say more) to Istanbul depending on how much you liked architecture and old mosques/churches. You could drive to Cappadocia via Bursa, which has some nice early Ottoman mosques and tombs, and Ankara which has probably the definitive Hittite collection in its museum and Attaturk's grand tomb. Cappadocia is worth several days to see the general countryside, visit the Goreme museum with its cave churches, climb to the top of the hill at Urgup to take in the vista and visit one of Kaymakli or Derinkuyu the underground cities (not for the exceptionally tall, wide or claustrophobic). You can see the site at Ephesus in a day but its a big site and if you're keen you might want to spread it over two days, Kusadasi is the usual base for this. You'll need to allow at least a day's driving between each of these bases. <BR> <BR>There's plenty south of Ephesus. Bodrum has a castle built by the Knights Hospittaler in the crusades and the remains of Halicarnasus (though the best of the statuary is in London). He area around Antalya and Alanya is a base to see Termessos, Aspendos and Perge. The coast down past Fethiye and Marmaris round to Anatalia is quite beautiful. <BR> <BR>I can't comment on the travel arrangements around the islands. When in Rhodes visit old Rhodes Town and take a boat trip to Lindos. I also enjoyed a day cruise to Symi, a quiet island and a great place to stock up on sponges and honey. Crete is a large island with lots of scenery and pretty villages. The Archaeological Museum in Heraklion houses the finds from Knossos (which is a short shuttle bus ride from Heraklion) and the Historical Museum has more modern exhibits. The active option is to walk the gorge (Samara?), I haven't done this but I understand comfy shoes and plenty of water are the order of the day. Folk on this forum disagree over whether Athens is interesting or a waste of valuable time. I think its interesting enough for a few days. The obvious site is the Acropolis but for the afficionado there are scores of small museums and churches. You can also take a day excursion to the Saronic Gulf taking in the islands of Agena, Poros and Hydra. You can also use it as a base for Corinth and further afield, Mycenae or Epidavros.

Two years ago, in 2 couples, we did a similar trip. We had 4 full weeks to spare (excluding flights) to visit Greece and Turkey, flying in/out Athens (out from Brazil there weren't many choices). Our first draft plan included all of the places you mention + Meteora, Delphi and Osios Loukas, the Peloponnese (Olympia, Micenae, Nafplio and Mistra) and Mykonos in Greece and Bodrum, Pamukkale and the west coast of Turkey... <BR> <BR>The very good advice we got in another forum at the time (rec.travel.europe) was to chop it down and then to chop it down some more ... <BR> <BR>Decision making may be painful ... to make a long story short, we ended up doing the following itinerary: <BR> <BR>Athens (2 nights) <BR>5 day car rental <BR>visit to Arachova on to Delphi (1 night) <BR>visit to Osios Loukas on to Patras (1 night) <BR>visit to Olympia on to Nafplio (3 nights) <BR>daytrips to Micenae, Argos and Mistra <BR>visit to Epidaurus on to Athens and night ferry (1 night) to Santorini (3 nights) <BR>2-day car rental in Santorini to explore the island <BR>Evening flight to Rhodes (3 nights) <BR>1-day car rental to explore Lindos and east coast <BR>Hydrofoil to Marmaris (2 nights) <BR>8 day car rental <BR>Day trip to Bodrum <BR>on to Pamukkale (1 night) <BR>on to Kusadasi (2 nights) <BR>Daytrip to Dydim, Miletus and Priene <BR>Visit to Ephesus and on to Bergama (1 night) <BR>Visit to Pergamon and on to Canakkale (1 night) <BR>On to Bursa (1 night) <BR>On to Istanbul (5 nights) <BR>Flight to Athens (1 night) <BR> <BR>This was almost perfect ... If we knew better, maybe the only changes would be to spend a night in Olympia instead of Patras in the Peloponnese, to have a car 8 days in Turkey and drive directly to Bodrum for 2 nights instead of Marmaris and to spend a night in Ayvalik instead of Bergama. <BR> <BR>Regarding your specific questions, I would advise you to forget about cruises. If you stick to your basic plan, you should reserve 3 nights each for Santorini and Rhodes and possibly 5 for Crete. Though ferry/hydrofoil transportation between Greek islands in October thins down, you shouldn't have any problems to get to Santorini (at least a daily ferry and possibly a daily hydrofoil). From Santorini to Rhodes (Iraklion) there's a daily hydrofoil. Should this not be in service in October, there should be a ferry service 3 days a week (Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays). From Agios Nikolaus in Crete to Rhodes, there shoud be ferries on Wednesdays and Fridays. No problems to get into Turkey (Marmaris) from Rhodes. <BR> <BR>In Santorini I woud rent a mini car (should cost less than US$ 50) at least for a day (possibly two). In Rhodes at least for a day. Don't know about Crete but I would guess that a car for 3 days may be almost a must. <BR> <BR>Car rentals in Turkey are expensive (once we split costs it worked all right for us). One may consider bus transportation instead. Buses in Turkey are at least as good as anywhere in Western Europe, if not better. Very confortable, cheap, frequent and between just about any two cities. For local day trips, you may either rent a taxi for the day (cheap) or use dolmus transportation (very cheap). <BR> <BR>In my opinion, 2 full days in Athens should do (Acropolis, Archaeological Museum and the Ancient Agora + Monasteriki and Plake in the evening). In Istanbul you should reserve at least 4 nights ... <BR> <BR>Finally, were you to do this trip indeed in October, in your shoes I wouldn't worry about reserving a single hotel room. I would do it on a day to day basis without any restraints. Once you get to Santorini, you may check your options to go on to Crete. Stay as long as you feel like it and then go on. Once in Crete check your ferry options to Rhodes. If these are awkward (if you arrive on a Wednesday you may either have to leave on Friday or wait till the next Wednesday) check if there arent'any flights. Then on to Rhodes and so on. In October you should be able to save a lot negotiating hotel rates in person instead of booking ahead of time and there's no price tag one can put on the complete freedom you'd have. <BR> <BR>Hope this helps you setting up your plans. <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR> <BR> <BR>

Having lived in TU and traveled a lot there and in greece, I think Paulo's itinerary is really good! The only thing I would add: almost anything worth seeing in Santorini is accessible by bus and the town is so crowded I'm not sure I would rent a car. We didn't. And, in Rhodes, if you just want to see Lindos, the Greek buses leave the bus stop by the castle and take you directly to Lindos. Why rent a car just to do that when you can go for next to nothing on the bus.

George, Paulo, Mike: <BR>Thank you all so much for your detailed and considered replies. We are currently in the process of re-planning our trip based on many of your suggestions. <BR>One more question about renting a car (which we hadn't been considering until now). Is it considered safe to drive long distances between cities in Turkey? Would it make sense to do that, rather than take busses or trains? <BR>Again, thanks. <BR> Les

I don't drive so I shouldn't really give advice to drivers. Turkey has a bad reputation for driving but if you stay alert you'll probably be ok. Nowadays roads to most sizeable places are good, the road from Istanbul to Ankara is a busy multilane highway. Many people on Fodors underestimate distances in Turkey, it looks so small and cute on the map. You'll spend a good part of a day driving from Istanbul to Ankara. Another catch is that sometimes places a few miles away as the crow flies are separated by twenty miles of switchback. <BR> <BR>In Turkey buses are an excellent ways to get around. They are cheap and efficient and they go virtually anywhere. The downside is that you are tied to their agenda and you may not be able to get where you want to go in one step. Buses are run by a myriad of private companies each servicing a route of interest to them rather than one national corporation. Its generally not easy to book remote legs of your journey in advance, you tend to book the current leg and sort out the next leg when you get there so you'll waste some time on administrivia. The buses stop for comfort breaks frequently but if you see somewhere interesting on the way you can't just stop and have a look. Also if you have a car you can use it to visit the, sometimes remote, sites. So basically buses are cheap and fun but cars are pricey and efficient. <BR> <BR>You see commuter trains at Sikerci Station in Istanbul and a famous overnight train runs from Istanbul to Ankara. Apart from that I wouldn't invest your money in Turkish railways, not passenger services anyway.

Sorry, re earlier posting: for Urgup read Uchisar. When in Urgup try the local wine, but not if you're driving!

We drove from Marmaris to Bodrum, back and forth, from Marmaris to Pamukkale, from Pamukkale to Kusadasi, from Kusadasi to Dydim back and forth, from Kusadasi to Ephesus/Seçuk (ruins, museum, Mary's house, St. Johns' basilica, Isa Beymosque, etc), from Ephesus to Bergama, Bergama to Canakkale, Canakkale to Bursa and from Bursa to Istanbul taking the ferry. 95% of the whole itinerary was through two way highways and just a small piece of it was on divided toll ways. Most of the way there was low traffic and well covered by police. We didn't find it dangerous at all ... really a piece of cake if one's allert when one has a car in front (overpassing and eventual unexpected moves). <BR> <BR>Now, we were 4 people dividing carrental/gas costs. It was very convenient (complete flexibility) at a reasonable cost (I would guess that even for the 4 of us,it would be more cost effective to travel by bus and to use taxis/dolmuses locally). So, if money isn't that much of a problem, go ahead and rent. Don't let reports on supposed driving safety problems let yo off ... Otherwise, use the bus for intercity transportation and taxis locally. For instance, say you're in Kusadasi and want to do a 6-hour day trip to visit Dydim, Miletus, Priene and an eventual dip in the sea. Or let's say that you want to visit all there is to see in Ephesus/Selçuk in 7/8 hours. I would guess that "renting" a taxi for almost the full day wouldn't cost more than $50 (probably less if you're good in bargaining). This is much less than the car rental costs alone (with full insurance) ... <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR> <BR>

Having just arrived in Samos,Greece from 18 days in Turkey, (see my post, Patrick's long trip, part 2 Turkey) I would say that the only problem we had with driving in Turkey is that we erred on the side of caution with our planning. We were afraid to plan to cover too much distance each day. For example, we felt it would be far too much to drive from Cappadocia to Antalya in one day, so we stayed one night in Konya and one night at Lake Egridir. That last stop in particular we could easily have avoided, and had it not been for the fact that we had already paid for the hotel we would have kept going when we arrived there well before noon. Do not be afraid to drive in Turkey, just be cautious about the other drivers who are about daring about passing on blind curves. We flew from Istanbul to Keyseri for Cappodocia and didn't care about Ankara anyway. The flight on Turkish Air was cheap and efficient and from Cappodicia on there was not real traffic problems, even along the busy tourist coast area (although May is probably a let better than July or August would be. October should be even better!) Incidentally the car we picked up at Keyseri from Auto Europe seemed to be overheating after only about 25 kilometers, so we pulled into a petrol station where no one spoke a word of English, but through charades they seemed as concerned as we were about the car. After they looked at it and called a mechanic from a nearby station who couldn't get it started again at all, they called the agency where we picked up the car and they brought us a new one instead. It was quite an adventure, but not really a problem and just a fluke with the Opel they gave us originally. People in Turkey are so helpful and friendly!!!

Les, we were hoping to do a similar trip next May for three weeks. We like May because it has many of the advantages of autumn except longer days. The only disadvantage may be rain. We were thinking about also trying to go to Ukraine (family there) so obviously we would not cover as many locations. Ideally a cruise that spent a week or so in the Greek islands and a week or so in the Black sea.