French to Snuff Out Smoking...
Sep 27th, 2006, 12:12 PM
#21
To get back to the basics, the government has pretty much decided to act by decree rather than parliamentary vote -- this gets weak little local representatives out of hot water with their constituents because they can claim "I had nothing to do with it."
There is still some wavering on exceptions. Generally, the two exceptions that are made in every country are prisons and psychiatric hospitals, but there has been talk of casinos, discos and cafés with a tobacconist counter (like in the film "Amélie" -- speaking of which, that real Paris café got rid of the tobacco counter 2 years ago). Personally, I don't think that they can dare to make any exceptions other than the first two unavoidable ones.
2007 is an election year in France, which makes the situation even more difficult, but the party in power knows that the ban is inevitable, so there's no point in appearing weak on the subject. After all, the next subject on the agenda will be gay marriage, and they can't wiggle out of that one either.
There is still some wavering on exceptions. Generally, the two exceptions that are made in every country are prisons and psychiatric hospitals, but there has been talk of casinos, discos and cafés with a tobacconist counter (like in the film "Amélie" -- speaking of which, that real Paris café got rid of the tobacco counter 2 years ago). Personally, I don't think that they can dare to make any exceptions other than the first two unavoidable ones.
2007 is an election year in France, which makes the situation even more difficult, but the party in power knows that the ban is inevitable, so there's no point in appearing weak on the subject. After all, the next subject on the agenda will be gay marriage, and they can't wiggle out of that one either.
Sep 27th, 2006, 01:53 PM
#25
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Gosh, I didn't know Spain wasn't enforcing the smoking ban. We went to Italy purely because it was so nice to eat in Ireland without the smoke and we heard it was working well. I know my DH will probably want to change our plans to go to Spain in '07 because of this. Oh well, we certainly loved Italy! Hopefully France will enforce the ban and adopt it with grace. Now for us Americans to get on the ball....
Sep 27th, 2006, 02:57 PM
#26
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You will find a few restaurants that have physical separation between smoking and non-smoking sections (as the law dictates). But everywhere else be prepared for a lot of smoking. In fact smoke lingers in the streets!
Sep 27th, 2006, 04:53 PM
#27
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kerouac -
The assumed exemption for psych and prisons is fading. In the US psychiatric facilites are going smoke free because it is a requirement for accreditation, and even prisons have begun to get on the bandwagon.
The assumed exemption for psych and prisons is fading. In the US psychiatric facilites are going smoke free because it is a requirement for accreditation, and even prisons have begun to get on the bandwagon.
Sep 27th, 2006, 06:11 PM
#28
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Like it or not, all western Europeans have pretty much lost all sense of individual choice and freedom with regard to almost everything. Regulation is their life now. So, whatever comes down from Paris or Brussels, the French will meekly go along. It will be interesting to see what happens in France when Brussels outlaws foie gras. It won't be long.
Sep 27th, 2006, 06:22 PM
#30
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Don't want to get into an endless discussion, so I will stipulate that the answer to your question is "yes." The minority must submit to the majority (as represented by "dirigistes" and "functionnaires"
in Paris and Brussels.
in Paris and Brussels.
Sep 27th, 2006, 09:56 PM
#31
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when this all started happening in the US a few years ago, most people here in europe (smokers AND nonsmokers) looked smugly across the atlantic:
"this will never happen here. the americans want to regulate everything, they are obsessed with health." many people were laughing at it like it was just another "stupid american thing". now nobody is laughing.
i'm not saying whether the regulations are right or wrong, just commenting on how this was such a joke just a few years ago in europe and how very quickly europe is getting in line with the US on this.
"this will never happen here. the americans want to regulate everything, they are obsessed with health." many people were laughing at it like it was just another "stupid american thing". now nobody is laughing.
i'm not saying whether the regulations are right or wrong, just commenting on how this was such a joke just a few years ago in europe and how very quickly europe is getting in line with the US on this.
Sep 27th, 2006, 11:51 PM
#32
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PalanqueBob, Eric S, Vedette, etc :
Well, this is quite a nice string of anglo-saxon cliches about France : "patrons with dangling cigarettes", "smoked-filled cafes", "foie gras", "dog poo"... etc.
The ban worked well in Italy,Ireland but of course it won't be enforced in France, many say on this thread. Sub message : the Italians, the Irish are a bit like us, exemplary Americans, but the French...As usual, the Irish, Italians, as significant elements of the US mix, are "covered" by political correctness, while it's always open season on the French.
I am a non smoker, and, of course, I hope a total ban will be enforced.
However, smoking has been banned in France since 1990, and it's enforced on the workplace, on trains, airplanes, airports, train stations (well... not always on the open-air platforms), schools, post offices, hospitals...
The Evin law of 1990 provided for derogations for restaurants and cafes, giving them the obligation to open a non-smoking section, which exists in the larger places. Of course this is not efficient, as the non-smoking sections, usually located in the back of establishments, get second-hand smoke.
As it has been underlined, public opinion is in favour of a total ban. For its part, the French catering profession has recently evolved on the smoking issue. After initially warning that a total ban would "kill business", in reference to alleged sharp drops in turnover in Ireland and Italy catering places, the cafe and restaurant business associations are now fearful fresh legal action from employees on health damages related to second-hand smoke, following recent court rulings (a case involving gambling house owners and employees is underway).
Even as a non-smoker,I am always amazed by the current anti-smoking hysteria of Americans. In a country which has marketed its tobacco brands around the world, it is indeed surprising that smoking, in just a few decades, has turned from something glamourous (in 1950's films, everything seems to be in a haze...) to a shameful activity, making smokers social pariahs. Is this anti-smoking crusade simply new territory for puritanism?
Well, this is quite a nice string of anglo-saxon cliches about France : "patrons with dangling cigarettes", "smoked-filled cafes", "foie gras", "dog poo"... etc.
The ban worked well in Italy,Ireland but of course it won't be enforced in France, many say on this thread. Sub message : the Italians, the Irish are a bit like us, exemplary Americans, but the French...As usual, the Irish, Italians, as significant elements of the US mix, are "covered" by political correctness, while it's always open season on the French.
I am a non smoker, and, of course, I hope a total ban will be enforced.
However, smoking has been banned in France since 1990, and it's enforced on the workplace, on trains, airplanes, airports, train stations (well... not always on the open-air platforms), schools, post offices, hospitals...
The Evin law of 1990 provided for derogations for restaurants and cafes, giving them the obligation to open a non-smoking section, which exists in the larger places. Of course this is not efficient, as the non-smoking sections, usually located in the back of establishments, get second-hand smoke.
As it has been underlined, public opinion is in favour of a total ban. For its part, the French catering profession has recently evolved on the smoking issue. After initially warning that a total ban would "kill business", in reference to alleged sharp drops in turnover in Ireland and Italy catering places, the cafe and restaurant business associations are now fearful fresh legal action from employees on health damages related to second-hand smoke, following recent court rulings (a case involving gambling house owners and employees is underway).
Even as a non-smoker,I am always amazed by the current anti-smoking hysteria of Americans. In a country which has marketed its tobacco brands around the world, it is indeed surprising that smoking, in just a few decades, has turned from something glamourous (in 1950's films, everything seems to be in a haze...) to a shameful activity, making smokers social pariahs. Is this anti-smoking crusade simply new territory for puritanism?
Sep 28th, 2006, 12:08 AM
#33
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When someone else's vice becomes a threat to my own health and comfort, it has nothing to do with puritanism and everything to do with self-preservation.
Besides, with health care costs for smokers effecting my pocketbook, it certainly is my business if people choose to smoke.
Increasing numbers of U.S. towns are banning smoking in parks and beaches. Some have even banned it everywhere besides private homes and automobiles. No outdoor smoking!
Besides, with health care costs for smokers effecting my pocketbook, it certainly is my business if people choose to smoke.
Increasing numbers of U.S. towns are banning smoking in parks and beaches. Some have even banned it everywhere besides private homes and automobiles. No outdoor smoking!
Sep 28th, 2006, 12:22 AM
#34
As I pointed out earlier, there are places in the United States where people are still puffing away. It is as incorrect to say "it's this way in the United States" as to say "it's that way in Europe" -- there is a lot of geography and different cultures in both places, and things are far from uniform.
As to whether people will respect a new law instantly in France or any other country, I don't think people started respecting it overnight in the parts of the U.S. that first implemented a ban. I remember seeing people all over NYC who were smoking in places where it was forbidden. When smoking was first banned in Paris metro stations, I would say that the ban was respected at first by about 80% of the smokers, then 85%, then 90% and now by about 99.9% -- you can still see bums and suburban teens and even a white collar outlaw with a cigarette from time to time.
As to whether people will respect a new law instantly in France or any other country, I don't think people started respecting it overnight in the parts of the U.S. that first implemented a ban. I remember seeing people all over NYC who were smoking in places where it was forbidden. When smoking was first banned in Paris metro stations, I would say that the ban was respected at first by about 80% of the smokers, then 85%, then 90% and now by about 99.9% -- you can still see bums and suburban teens and even a white collar outlaw with a cigarette from time to time.
Sep 28th, 2006, 01:07 AM
#35
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"However, smoking has been banned in France since 1990, and it's enforced on the workplace, on trains, airplanes, airports, train stations (well... not always on the open-air platforms), schools, post offices, hospitals..."
Trudaine, I don't know if you live in France. I have lived and worked in France many years until recently. The 1991 Evin law most definitely has been enforced very weakly, if at all! In the workplace (including schools and universities) people smoke away, as well as in train and metro stations. I used to work in a public establishment and half of the people smoked in the office. It got a bit better after 2003. You can find more information on http://dnf.asso.fr/
Also, some people in this thread have given arguments why they think the proposed ban won't work in France, so address those instead of calling people prejudiced, anglos, or whatnot.
your reference to puritanism is completely off the mark. It's a health and quality of life issue.
Trudaine, I don't know if you live in France. I have lived and worked in France many years until recently. The 1991 Evin law most definitely has been enforced very weakly, if at all! In the workplace (including schools and universities) people smoke away, as well as in train and metro stations. I used to work in a public establishment and half of the people smoked in the office. It got a bit better after 2003. You can find more information on http://dnf.asso.fr/
Also, some people in this thread have given arguments why they think the proposed ban won't work in France, so address those instead of calling people prejudiced, anglos, or whatnot.
your reference to puritanism is completely off the mark. It's a health and quality of life issue.
Sep 28th, 2006, 02:58 AM
#39
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Now if Big Brother would just do something about all the obese people who are running up my health costs & take up too much space on planes, trains & buses & the drinkers who kill thousands every year, cause a lot of crime, not to mention domestic violence & also run up health costs & really, unprotected sex needs to be outlawed because AIDS & unwanted pregnancy cost a LOT.
It's funny/odd how when someone dies of lung cancer if they're famous & a smoker there's a mention that they smoked which always gives me the impression the obit is saying in an underhanded way "they deserved it." If someone dies of AIDS nobody mentions the cause. Both are tragic but the double standard is, to my way of thinking quite obvious.
I don't smoke, by the way.
It's funny/odd how when someone dies of lung cancer if they're famous & a smoker there's a mention that they smoked which always gives me the impression the obit is saying in an underhanded way "they deserved it." If someone dies of AIDS nobody mentions the cause. Both are tragic but the double standard is, to my way of thinking quite obvious.
I don't smoke, by the way.
Sep 28th, 2006, 03:15 AM
#40
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in spain you will be able to find many small non-smoking cafes and restaurants..although you may have to search a little bit. they all have a sign on the window as being a smoking or NON smoking cafe. hopefully soon there will be enough interested inspectors to actually do their job on the larger cafes to see if they have built the correct ventilation/separation system.
i also was pleasantly shocked in italy as to their strict adherence to the law. i was very impressed, and assumed they would strut a similar mediterranean rebelious individualistic attitude.. however, i have been told that the fines to both the smoker and owners were /are very steep and are srtictly enforced.
good job!
i also was pleasantly shocked in italy as to their strict adherence to the law. i was very impressed, and assumed they would strut a similar mediterranean rebelious individualistic attitude.. however, i have been told that the fines to both the smoker and owners were /are very steep and are srtictly enforced.
good job!
