French Speaking Tips???
Dec 15th, 2002, 11:15 PM
#44
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Beg to differ with the Madame being "my lady" and not having anything to do with being married. The unmarried version of a young lady is "demoiselle" just as we say "Master"so and so instead of "Mr."so and so when dealing w/young lads. Its origins are surely to be found in "my lady = ma dame, but it does have strong social implications dating from the more recent past when a "respectable" position equated to a "married" position, and it was pretty much shameful to be single (modern term), hence the pejorative terms spinster, old maid etc. If the female is at an age where it wouldn't have been a shame upon the family to still be single-say into the twenties-then if there is no ring on the finger use "mademoiselle". The thirties are iffy, but by the forties regarless, ring/no ring, as a sign of respect for your elders you would use "madame". With the French always err on the side of formality...Madame/Monsieur, vous instead of tu. You can't go wrong that way. (and no they aren't a bunch of stuffed shirts, just un peuple noble et digne!)
Dec 16th, 2002, 12:29 PM
#47
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I find it interesting how many people are studying French or at least interested in the language. The mademoiselle/madame thing never seems comfortable to me as an American because I am, in fact, a mademoiselle but over age 40 -- so, I have "heard" that I should now be a Madame simply for age. I don't really like this because I'm not, and it sounds odd to me to be called that in French when I'm not married (and in reality, I think maybe some of these old customs that came from single women being a horrible disgrace should be changed). However, one problem with this I have noticed is that when I sign my letters as Mme XYZ to a French hotel, for example, simply because I am older and think that's what I should do, they will translate this as "Mrs" on registry or in replies to me (in English), etc, and I don't like that. I wonder if they don't know about the English marital-neutral "Ms." which I would much prefer, or think that is not correct to use. I've heard some women don't like that title, but I much prefer to be addressed in business situations as "Ms." than "Mrs." which I'm not.<BR>
Dec 16th, 2002, 12:31 PM
#48
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Anyway, to follow-up on Hike's question on the subjunctive in a sample phrase someone gave to use in Paris (I don't think anyone addressed this, so thought I would):<BR><BR>Message: >"La seule phrase que je peut dire en francais est celle-ci." .. Probably not perfect grammar. I'm learning French (+English). Maybe that's why I want to have this sentence correctly. This should probably be said "..que je PUISSE dire ..", "La seul" making the superative. Perhaps I'm wrong. Somebody can confirm ?>><BR><BR>Well, first it is conjugated incorrectly (or perhaps misspelled), as peut is third person, not first, so is should be "peux" . I think that is actually correct, for the second clause to be in the indicative, not the subjunctive. I know you will read in learning uses of the subjunctive that one case is when superlatives are used, and "la seule" is considered a superlative in this sentence. However, this usage isn't really that simple and it isn't an ironclad "rule". The subjunctive tense is used with superlatives in the antecedent in some cases when the sense of the sentence is meant to convey an opinion (as one of the uses of the subjunctive is to express uncertainty, doubt, etc, as I'm sure you've learned). It is a somewhat softer form that sort of allows for a disagreement or another opinion. For example, if someone said something like "Marie is the prettiest girl I know", then that could be in the subjunctive (Marie est la plus belle fille que je connaise.)<BR><BR>However, if something is really a fact and a superlative is used (eg, usually that would be dernier, seul, etc), then the indicative is the correct verb tense because there is no doubt or uncertainty or opinion. In this example, if it really is a fact that this is the only sentence someone can say, then the indicative tense would be correct. For example, if you said "this is the last bill that I received" you wouldn't use the subjunctive (c'est la derniere facture que j'ai recue).<BR><BR>I think when you use verbs such as being able or knowing, it can get a little fuzzier--such as this example, perhaps there is a possibility this person will learn another sentence so this isn't forever the only one, but that is beyond my level of knowledge as to whether that alone could make the subjunctive appropriate to that sentence. Maybe it would depend on the sense you wanted to convey. I would not use the subjunctive in that sentence and many French people don't always use it consistently either, I've noticed, even in clearer cases.<BR><BR>I know I've read in some simple French teaching materials that the subjunctive is always used with superlatives, but that isn't what I've learned from more advanced and nuanced studies. And, if you understand the subjunctive's meaning and usage, that makes sense that there are distinctions depending on the intent.<BR><BR>I'm sorry, Hike, if this is too complicated if English isn't your native language, but these are difficult concepts to explain, although your English seems very idiomatic and fluent.<BR>
Dec 16th, 2002, 01:05 PM
#49
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More on the subjunctive...<BR><BR>First, it is not a tense; rather, it is a mood, which right off the bat I think puts people off if they have not studied languages much. There are two moods in language: indicative and subjunctive. Generally speaking, the indicative mood is used to express an action or state of being that is factual. The subjunctive mood is used to describe an action or state of being that is not factual - something desired, wished for, hoped for or even known not to be true (I wish I WERE king, not I wish I WAS king - because you know you're not king).<BR><BR>In English the subjunctive is practically moribund except for in cases such as above and in other odd phrases here and there (glory BE to God, not glory IS to God...Manners BE damned!...Come what may....I move that Joanna BE appointed chair of the committee...I insist that he BE removed...that all men BE created equal)<BR><BR>In French, the subjunctive is alive and well, though not so healthy as in Italian and Spanish. It is true in literary French that the subjunctive is used with a superlative. Other compulsory uses of the subjunctive include:<BR><BR>1. subordinate clauses introduced by que (je tiens à ce que vous appreniez)<BR>2. After verbs expressing will, order, and wish (dites-lui que je lui en fais cadeau et qu'il en prenne bien soin).<BR>3. After verbs of opinion, doubt, and perception, especially when used negatively or interrogatively (Que ça existe, et qu'ily ait un Dieu, je ne peux pas le comprendre)<BR>4. After impersonal verbs or impersonal expressions denoting necessity, doubt, possibility, or negation (il faut que vous partiez demain! Il n'y a que la loi qui sauve. Il faut que je prenne un billet)<BR>5. With subordinate clauses introduced by certain conjunctive locutions such as afin que, pour que, de sorte que, en sorte que (j'y vais pour que je puisse retrouver quelque chose)<BR>6. With certain locutions related to time such as avant que, jusqu'à ce que (Il y a juste le temps pour une partie, avant qu'il fasse nuit).<BR>7. With locutions like bien que, quoique and sans que (Geneviève écoutait sans que tressaillit un muscle de son visage)<BR>8. Relative clauses expressing a hypothesis, possibility, or doubt.<BR><BR>Though these uses are considered "compulsory," the average French person doesn't use them in everyday speech, I don't think, except with some of the more common constructions like "il faut" and "bien que." I don't know that they are even used properly in newspapers and magazines. I think you'd have to reach a really remarkable level of fluency to use the subjunctive correctly all the time.
Dec 16th, 2002, 02:21 PM
#50
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Wow! Great explanation on le subjonctif, especially the English lang. explanation which helped put it into perspective. Sounds like maybe the French are doing to the subjunctive what we are doing to adverbs and adjectives these days. The most common used one it seems to me that still sticks today is the "il faut que", especially with aller. We all seem to be needing to go somehwhere where we aren't at the moment...
Dec 18th, 2002, 01:11 AM
#53
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Christina and StCirq, wow really, thank you for taking your time on the matter of le subjonctif.<BR><BR>Just a little more thought or rather a fact on the subject : I have been able to check this sentence with a French person. His back ground : A lawyer (« un notaire » to be precise), 55 years old. He hesitated and had to think over before answering. This should normal for a native speaker with no experience in teaching his language to others in professional levels. According to him, with this particular sentence « La seule phrase que je PEUX/PUISSE dire .. », he would say PUISSE – la forme subjonctive - because it sounds more « élégant » than PEUX – la forme indicative. He said also phonetically PUISSE is nicer to hear. He would not,however, call using PEUX in this case wrong. because there is some nuance between 2 forms that he couldn’t really explain. <BR><BR>Above is one opinion from a French person. Many may agree or maybe some French don’t. Languages are fuzzy matters anyway.<BR>
Dec 18th, 2002, 01:48 AM
#54
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Well, I would say you can learn a lot about how in depth somebody studied a language, once he/she starts talking.<BR>Over all, language skills seem to become less important these days and a lot of slang is used, mainly from English/American origin (the famous Franglais Mitterand tried to eliminate!).<BR>In France, elderly people tend to speak and write much better, i.e. they use the subjonctive and also the passe simple, when indicated or a must.<BR>I like to make conversation with people who speak a high level French or English, because it's only then I can really improve my personal skills.
Dec 18th, 2002, 08:29 AM
#55
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Interesting reply, Hike. However, a notaire is not really an attorney. He's more like a Bailiff. He cannot plead before the French courts.<BR><BR>That being said, I can answer why you would say "La seule phrase que je puisse" and not "La seule phrase que je peux." Remember this rule: When something is mentioned that is the best, the worst, the only and such, you would use the SUBJONCTIF and not the INDICATIF. Naturally, people will use the Indicatif but it is not correct grammar (and that happens in every language). Here are some examples:<BR><BR>La seule phrase que je puisse .... (the only sentence I can ....)<BR>L'unique fils qu'il ait eu .....<BR>(the only son he had ....)<BR>Le meilleur que vous puissiez faire pour moi (the best thing you can do for me ...)<BR>Le moins que je puisse dire (the least thing I can say .......)<BR><BR>I hope this proves helpful in the future. I did like the explanation your notaire friend made. It also does sound much more eloquent. And don't forget, you don't ever say "Peux-je avoir" but "Puis-je avoir."
Dec 18th, 2002, 02:09 PM
#56
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Eye Spy, thanks for your comments. <BR><BR>Regarding your post, I know "un notaire" is not an attorney (Perry Mason kind). That's why I put "..lawyer (un notaire TO BE PRECISE)". Maybe I should have used the word by which he called himself, "juriste". Also thanks for your advice. But you don't need to worry about me with your puis-je & peux-je. That's quite elementary and most people here who replied regarding le subjonctif should make no error about this because "Puis-je" sounds natural and easy to pronounce contrary to "Peux-je". I'm glad some people are interested enough to reply to these matters.
Dec 19th, 2002, 12:44 AM
#57
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<BR><BR>To take up the Madame/mademoiselle question again - would you like to be called "Miss" just because you are single? Ma'am - and therefore "madame" in French just seems to show respect for older people. Seems to me it is akin to Sir/Monsieur (which has nothing to do with being married or single).
Dec 19th, 2002, 02:45 AM
#58
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I pretty much agree with Sarah. <BR><BR>I also heard some French people say people use "Madame" more and more instead of "Mademoiselle". This will obviously not apply to little girls but otherwise, this makes you don't have to worry whether she is married or not when addressing to a woman.
Dec 19th, 2002, 10:09 AM
#59
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A Frenchman will always address a woman as "Madame" if he is not sure of her marital status. Even if a young lady in her early 20's is addressed as "Madame" there is no stigma attached to it and a woman shouldn't think she is considered "old" if addressed as such.
Dec 19th, 2002, 03:34 PM
#60
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I didn't expect that I was old enough to be "madame" when I went to France this past July. I am 33, single, and ringless. I was shocked when I heard people address me as madame right and left! I've been there many times and was never considered anything but mademoiselle. It was explained to me as a sign of respect. Perhaps I carry myself with more confidence than I did when in my 20's.<BR><BR>And my 2 cents regarding polite behavior. Be what Americans would consider "sickening polite." Always use your Monsieur, Madame, Merci, s'il vous plait, etc. It will get you far. I had always heard that cabbies were just so terrible. I spoke French to them (studied 10+ years) and they were incredibly kind and helpful. One driver even apologized for taking us a route that cost 1 euro (about $1) more so that he could show us the tourist office location. Greeting shopkeepers will get you better service too.
