elaine

I'm fairly certain that Pont Neuf predates Napoleon by centuries.

StCirq

Construction of the Pont Neuf began in 1578, and it is the oldest bridge in Paris.

Marie007

Bonsoir à tous !

Juste quelques précisions !

1. One can't say "le train dernier", you can only say "je vais prendre le dernier train" (I'm going to take the last train). The only expression in which "dernier" comes after the noun is "le Jugement dernier" (Last Judgment).

2. When you enter a shop and want to buy something to replace the old one, you'll say "j'aimerais acheter un nouveau bracelet"... If you want the shopkeeper to show you his latest models, you'll say "qu'avez-vous comme tout nouveaux bracelets en magasin, s'il vous plaît ?" or "quels sont vos nouveaux modèles, s'il vous plaît ?"

3. As Laura explains in her lessons, normally, "nouveau" changes meanings according to its place.

http://french.about.com/od/mistakes/a/new.htm

See "le Grand Robert" dictionary :

- "Avoir une voiture NOUVELLE, c'est avoir une voiture d'un type récemment créé, qui vient à peine de sortir " (the car has just been "launched" on the market, tell me if my use of the verb "launch" is correct or not, please !)

- alors que/whereas : "une NOUVELLE voiture" est "une voiture qui remplace la précédente et qui peut n'être pas neuve." (a new car is the car which replaces the previous one, and may not be brand new, it may be a second hand car)

4. Be careful when you use "neuf/neuve" which can apply to something which has never been used before. "Brand new" = "tout neuf/toute neuve".

Yet, it can also mean something which is less "old" than another thing. Thus, "une voiture neuve"... "n'est pas forcément une voiture nouvelle."

And whatever it means, it can only be used AFTER the noun. Voilà ! Bonne fin de journée ! Marie

harzer

Yes 'launch' can be used here to mean 'release onto the market for the first time.'

But " .. qui n'etre pas neuve" wasn't in Le Grand Robert or even le Petit Robert. Where did that come from?

Harzer

tedgale

Marie: How about "flambant neuf" for "brand new"?

Or am I misremembering my French idioms?

elaine

I have one of the Robert books, "Dictionnaire des difficultes du francais", I'd forgotten to look in there.
The info on neuf and nouveau doesn't mention the <before or after the noun> conundrum.

Marie007

To Harzer : Bonjour !

Thanks a lot for your help ! I thought of "release" but didn't dare to use it...

The sentence with "qui n'est pas neuve" comes from "Le Grand Robert Electronique", a wonderful Cd which I can't live without (hum, correct ?), it's my Bible ;-)

You can also get quotations containing "nouveau" and "neuf", look :

"1 Ce qui est nouveau vient de paraître pour la première fois; ce qui est neuf vient d'être fait et n'a point encore servi; ce qui est récent vient de se passer tout à l'heure. On dit une mode nouvelle, un habit neuf (...) un fait ou un exemple récent. La chose nouvelle n'était pas connue; la chose neuve n'est pas usée (...) la chose récente n'est pas ancienne. Une invention est nouvelle, une expression neuve.
LAFAYE, Dict. des synonymes, Nouveau, neuf..."

"4.1 Le peuple bavarois circulait en vêtements neufs, en gants neufs, en chapeaux neufs, mais étoffes et feutres étaient rêches à la vue, au toucher (...)
J. GIRAUDOUX, Siegfried et le Limousin, p. 126." Cordialement. Marie

cigalechanta

Bonjour Marie, it's nice to see you here. Welcome!

Marie007

To Tedgale : Bonsoir !

In my Oxford-Hachette "dico" online, one finds "tout neuf" for "brand-new"...

On the other hand, in my "Robert & Collins" paper "Senior" dico, they add "flambant neuf" to "tout neuf".

So, yes, your memory is very good Bonne fin de journée ! Marie

Marie007

To Mimi : So pleased to see you back online ! Do take care of yourself, you may be a little "fragile" for the weeks to come ! Be a good girl and do have a rest whenever you feel tired ! And thanks for your nice words !/Et merci pour tes paroles gentilles ! Bises. Marie

Marie007

To Elaine : Bonsoir !

Well, this info can be found "en large et en travers"/at great length when you type in "nouveau" in the "Grand Robert Electronique" available on a Cd... Bonne fin de journée ! Marie

elaine

Bon soir, Marie
If I understand the selection from Le Grand Robert that you kindly provided, the usage is more restricted than the other sources that have been cited here.

If it's 'nouveau' it's appearing for the first time or was unknown previously, and if it's 'neuf' it has never been used before.

So, new clothes, new to the person wearing them, are 'neuf' (to be plural of course) but a new fashion (new to the world) is nouveau?

So, will I want a bracelet neuf if I want a new watchband for my old watch in this nouvelle annee ?

Marie007

Bonjour Elaine

When you want to buy new clothes, you say "je veux m'acheter/acheter des nouveaux vêtements" ("une nouvelle robe" par exemple/a new dress, for instance, or/and "un nouveau pantalon/new trousers), you don't need to specify "des vêtements neufs", unless you happen to buy second-hand clothes at times... "Neuf" is the opposite of "d'occasion" when you speak about clothes, cars, etc.

In the same way, you don't need to specify that you want to buy/need a "bracelet de montre neuf", except if the shop-keeper also sells... second-hand ones You can content yourself with saying "je désire acheter un nouveau bracelet pour ma montre, l'ancien (the old one) est usé/worn out" or "ne me plaît plus"/I no longer like it...

As to fashion, we'd say "à la dernière mode" ("s'habiller à la dernière mode" = "to wear the latest fashions&quot IMHO, saying "la nouvelle mode" or "la mode nouvelle" sounds a bit weird... We'd say "quelles sont les nouvelles tendances de la mode du printemps/été 2005 ?"/what are the new fashion trends for the spring and summer 2005 ? (please, correct my English, this is the nicest thing you can do for me !)

Voilà ! Bonne et heureuse nouvelle année/tous mes voeux pour cette nouvelle année ! Marie

elaine

Unlike my French, your English is perfect!

Merci bien Marie!

tedgale

Marie: I notice your use of the phrase "des nouveaux vetements" which, of course, does not follow the usual rule of dropping the unstated definite article (les) when an adjective precedes the noun.

For non linguists: Normally you would write "des vetements" but "DE nouveaux vetements".

This may have been a "faute de frappe" (typo) or it may have been intentional, as I seem to recall that the rule can be broken in some cases.

I seem to remember that the rule need not apply when the adjective is integral to the concept -- e.g. a compound proper name ("Il y a de bons marches a Paris mais il y a egalement des Bons Marches" -- ?????)

Have you any thoughts on this? I am asking sincerely, not to point out an apparent error.

Marie007

First of all, thanks, Elaine, for your nice words, you're very indulgent ;-) !

Now, re-bonjour Tedgale !

"For non linguists: Normally you would write "des vêtements" but "DE nouveaux vêtements"."

Ouah, lol ! This is what my students call "une prise de tête" in today's colloquial French !

You're "obliging me" to ponder on what may have been either a typo or a mistake

Well, according to my old grammar-book, you're right ;-) ! But, both my dh who had just arrived from work and I did wonder what was wrong and what we would/should say !

The grammar book from my "classe de 4ème" says "l'article "des" (partitif ou indéfini) se réduit à "de" lorsque le nom est précédé d'un adjectif"... Exemples : "j'ai reçu de bons amis", "j'ai vu de beaux tableaux" ("Grammaire française", "classes de 4ème et suivantes", by A. Hamon, "Classiques Hachette", page 196)

Yet, one finds this in the "Grand Robert Electronique" in the page dedicated to "des", ARTICLE INDEFINI :

- "REM. 1. "De" remplace généralement "des" devant un adjectif." and gives this quotation from André Malraux (so you can notice the presence of the adverb "généralement"/generally...) :

"10 Le Russe mangeait des petits bonbons au sucre (...)
MALRAUX, la Condition humaine, I, in Romans, Pl., p. 173."

Thus, when "des" is not "un article partitif" and is "un article indéfini", (which nuance is often difficult to analyze...), one can meet "des" before "un groupe nominal" with an adjective in it.

Bon, pour l'instant, c'est tout ! If I think of anything else, I'll "come back" and tell you ;-) But, at first sight, YOU are RIGHT ;-) Cordialement. Marie

Nikki

OK, now I totally understand why such grammatical rules confuse me. As long as they also confuse Marie, I feel OK. And if I inadvertently get some of this stuff wrong when I try to tell the cab driver where to drop me off in Paris, I assume he'll forgive me.

Marie007

To Nikky : ;-) !!!

To Tedgall, a good American friend who is completely bilingual forwarded me some extracts from the other French "bible" "Le Bon Usage, by Maurice Grevisse.

http://www.langue-fr.net/biblio/Bon-Usage.htm

Here is my friend's mail :

- "On met "du", "de la", "de l' ", "des" devant les nom composés et les groupes de mots où l'adjectif fait corps avec le nom :

DES grands-pères. DES jeunes gens. DU bons sens. DE LA bonne volonté. ... Donnez-moi DES petits pois (LITTRÉ, s.v. pois) ..."

"So there is a difference between "à Paris, il y a DE grands magasins partout" et "à Paris il y a DES grands magasins partout", for example.

Grevisse goes on to say that, "dans l'usage ordinaire d'aujourd'hui", "Au singulier, "de bon pain", "de bonne soupe" s'écrivent parfois encore, mais sont inusités dans la langue parlée..." mais "Au pluriel, "de bons fruits" est le tour habituel dans la langue écrite ; il s'entend couramment chez les gens qui ont un langage soigné..."

Cependant, "des bons fruits" prévaut dans la langue parlée et se répand dans la langue écrite"

Thus my dh's hesitations and mine must come from the fact that, in everyday life, we tend to use the indefinite article "des" before "un groupe nominal" with an adjective/adjectives in it... Allez, au dodo ! It's a bit late on this side of the pond Au revoir ! Marie

tedgale

That was a wonderfully instructive response.

Perhaps we who speak French as a second language are more severe in our interpretation and application of the rules than are native French speakers, who feel free to exercise un peu de souplesse dans la langue quotidienne.

Marie007

To Tedgale : Exactement ;-) ! Don't you do the same when speaking your native tongue in your everyday life ? On a tendance à parler une langue relâchée quand on est fatigué ou/et qu'on a envie de se défouler Cordialement. Marie