France prepares to stub out smoking in cafes
Dec 26th, 2007, 09:02 AM
#41
France has made one concession to smoking that displeases me. Smoking will be allowed at outdoor terraces of cafés and restaurants, as long as one side is completely open (this refers to the winter enclosures of many terraces, using plastic, plexiglas or other material). Even in the summer at a terrace open on all sides, I have often been bothered by smokers at outdoor tables next to me.
At the same time, I consider my displeasure to be unreasonable, as there will never be any legislation about flatulence, personal hygiene or the general use of deodorant, suffocating perfumes, or lots of non olfactive or health related insults to my vision of the world.
At the same time, I consider my displeasure to be unreasonable, as there will never be any legislation about flatulence, personal hygiene or the general use of deodorant, suffocating perfumes, or lots of non olfactive or health related insults to my vision of the world.
Dec 26th, 2007, 09:40 AM
#42
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PalenQ wrote "and the pubs in smoke free countries are in fact booming "
I can assure you where i live in Leicestershire the village pubs are going through a hard time now winter has arrived.In the summer it won't make a lot of difference,but i like many others would sooner stop at home than keep popping
outside in the cold for a cigarette.
Unfortunately the Landlord of my pub tells me that if things dont improve he will be in serious financial problems come the spring due to lack of custom as non smokers on the whole nowhere near make up for the smokers stopping at home.
But whilst we have cretins running this country we will keep losing our heritage and lose more pubs.
I can assure you where i live in Leicestershire the village pubs are going through a hard time now winter has arrived.In the summer it won't make a lot of difference,but i like many others would sooner stop at home than keep popping
outside in the cold for a cigarette.
Unfortunately the Landlord of my pub tells me that if things dont improve he will be in serious financial problems come the spring due to lack of custom as non smokers on the whole nowhere near make up for the smokers stopping at home.
But whilst we have cretins running this country we will keep losing our heritage and lose more pubs.
Dec 26th, 2007, 09:48 AM
#43
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I should have said in Ireland and Italy it seems they are from what i've heard
Perhaps UK is different, especially rural pubs which were dying on the vine i think anyway and it just may speed it up
winners and losers
thank God health concerns for all win out over the need for smokers to outrageously IMO insist on polluting the air of others, including workers who have to serve them
Perhaps UK is different, especially rural pubs which were dying on the vine i think anyway and it just may speed it up
winners and losers
thank God health concerns for all win out over the need for smokers to outrageously IMO insist on polluting the air of others, including workers who have to serve them
Dec 26th, 2007, 10:22 AM
#44
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This is interesting - I travel internationally all the time (business), and I have such an issue because smoking is allowed more there than anywhere I've been recently in the US. I was in Belgium the week they implemented the no-smoking rule in our hotel, and that was just last year. People still want to go out, and if everyone enforces it, people will modify their behavious accordingly.... I love the no-smoking, and I do wish it was more enforced overseas......
Dec 26th, 2007, 11:23 AM
#45
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PalenQ:
What are your health concerns? Is there a valid study out there that says second hand smoke, in the amounts recieved in a cafe or bar causes cancer? I've asked the local American Cancer Society representative, who only refers to the EPA guidance from the mid 90's, which is without scientific support. Certainly smoking causes cancer, and second-hand smoke contains carcinogens, but is there a definitive study that shows limited amounts of second hand smoke actually cause cancer?
I support a ban, if you allow the business owner to opt in or opt out. That will allow the market to take care of the matter. I certainly don't go to hip-hop clubs and complain about no classic rock music is being played. If I do not want smoking, I would only frequent businesses that prohibit smoking.
As for the comment previously about "your right to smoke stops at my nostrils". I guess you ought to look where you stick your nose. If I was a smoker, would my right to smoke in my own home be banned if you came to visit, or, would it likely be that you wouldn't visit me at my home, but would limit contact to dinner at a restaurant that bans smoking?
What are your health concerns? Is there a valid study out there that says second hand smoke, in the amounts recieved in a cafe or bar causes cancer? I've asked the local American Cancer Society representative, who only refers to the EPA guidance from the mid 90's, which is without scientific support. Certainly smoking causes cancer, and second-hand smoke contains carcinogens, but is there a definitive study that shows limited amounts of second hand smoke actually cause cancer?
I support a ban, if you allow the business owner to opt in or opt out. That will allow the market to take care of the matter. I certainly don't go to hip-hop clubs and complain about no classic rock music is being played. If I do not want smoking, I would only frequent businesses that prohibit smoking.
As for the comment previously about "your right to smoke stops at my nostrils". I guess you ought to look where you stick your nose. If I was a smoker, would my right to smoke in my own home be banned if you came to visit, or, would it likely be that you wouldn't visit me at my home, but would limit contact to dinner at a restaurant that bans smoking?
Dec 26th, 2007, 11:33 AM
#46
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why do folks HAVE to smoke in restaurants - make the food taste better or because they're ADDICTED to Nicotine or why?
Cancer is not the only thing - Emphesema - many folks on Fodor's report being allergic to such smoke
and folks clothes smelling like stale smoke
your house is your castle and adults there can do what they like but my opinion if you smoke in home with kids coming in contact with the smoke that is child abuse
Why don't you show me stats where second hand smoke is no harmless - there have been many studies claiming it is
I don't know but you are the only saying it is not - give me some legitimate non Tobacco-money funded studies saying so
I think you and smokers like you who advocate blowing smoke up my nostrils in public places are selfish and rude
that said i would not oppose a smoking room in pubs where you go order in a non-smoking environment then closing yourself in the smoke-filled room - it would give you much more Nicotine for the rush you need and perhaps save you money as you would not need to smoke as many cigarettes but just whiff it all in.
That type of smoking room would be fine - and it's actually what Amsterdam i believe is going to implement in coffeeshops and smoking of the dangerous weed (less dangerous if any than tobacco studies have indeed shown)
Cancer is not the only thing - Emphesema - many folks on Fodor's report being allergic to such smoke
and folks clothes smelling like stale smoke
your house is your castle and adults there can do what they like but my opinion if you smoke in home with kids coming in contact with the smoke that is child abuse
Why don't you show me stats where second hand smoke is no harmless - there have been many studies claiming it is
I don't know but you are the only saying it is not - give me some legitimate non Tobacco-money funded studies saying so
I think you and smokers like you who advocate blowing smoke up my nostrils in public places are selfish and rude
that said i would not oppose a smoking room in pubs where you go order in a non-smoking environment then closing yourself in the smoke-filled room - it would give you much more Nicotine for the rush you need and perhaps save you money as you would not need to smoke as many cigarettes but just whiff it all in.
That type of smoking room would be fine - and it's actually what Amsterdam i believe is going to implement in coffeeshops and smoking of the dangerous weed (less dangerous if any than tobacco studies have indeed shown)
Dec 26th, 2007, 12:05 PM
#48
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<<Is there a valid study out there that says second hand smoke, in the amounts recieved in a cafe or bar causes cancer?>>
California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. June 2005.
The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke : a Report of the Surgeon General. – Atlanta, GA: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Coordinating Center for Health Promotion, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, Office on Smoking and Health, 2006.
Boffetta P, Agudo A, Ahrens W et al. Multicenter Case-Control Study of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke and Lung Cancer in Europe. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 1998; 90: 1440-1445.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.. Annual Smoking-Attributable Mortality, Years of Potential Life Lost,
and Economic Costs-U.S., 1997-2001. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 2005; 54(25): 625-628.
Farrelly MC, Nonemaker JM, Chou R, Hyland A, Peterson KK, Bauer UE. Changes in Hospitality Workers’ Exposure to Secondhand Smoke Following the Implementation of New York’s Smoke-free Law. Tob Control. 2005 Aug; 14(4): 236-41.
California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. June 2005.
The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke : a Report of the Surgeon General. – Atlanta, GA: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Coordinating Center for Health Promotion, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, Office on Smoking and Health, 2006.
Boffetta P, Agudo A, Ahrens W et al. Multicenter Case-Control Study of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke and Lung Cancer in Europe. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 1998; 90: 1440-1445.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.. Annual Smoking-Attributable Mortality, Years of Potential Life Lost,
and Economic Costs-U.S., 1997-2001. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 2005; 54(25): 625-628.
Farrelly MC, Nonemaker JM, Chou R, Hyland A, Peterson KK, Bauer UE. Changes in Hospitality Workers’ Exposure to Secondhand Smoke Following the Implementation of New York’s Smoke-free Law. Tob Control. 2005 Aug; 14(4): 236-41.
Dec 26th, 2007, 12:10 PM
#49
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<Is there a valid study out there that says second hand smoke, in the amounts recieved in a cafe or bar causes cancer?>>
No apersauder65
there are many extremely valid studies, not just one
is that enough for you or will you still force poisons down others throats just for your own personal pleasure?
now why don't you just note one non-tobacco money funded study saying what you claim - that secondary smoke is practically healthy>
I'm betting you can't.
End of argument
No apersauder65
there are many extremely valid studies, not just one
is that enough for you or will you still force poisons down others throats just for your own personal pleasure?
now why don't you just note one non-tobacco money funded study saying what you claim - that secondary smoke is practically healthy>
I'm betting you can't.
End of argument
Dec 26th, 2007, 12:40 PM
#50
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This is a touchy, touchy topic. Yikes. Just wanted to put my two cents in: I certainly hope that it will stay enforced, but as I've lived through two major metro strikes this year and the fact that my university was on strike for five weeks due to things I would consider relatively minor compared to banning smoking in cafés, I would say people have an interesting knee-jerk reaction to change here.
Plus--have you guys noticed we're on the "Europe" forum? If you want to yell at each other about the way things are in the U.S. go over there and do it.
Plus--have you guys noticed we're on the "Europe" forum? If you want to yell at each other about the way things are in the U.S. go over there and do it.
Dec 26th, 2007, 12:49 PM
#51
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Wow do you people have to sincerely lighten up.
I am a non-smoker, but when in countries where it is permitted or, in some cases, enforced - I remember I am a visitor and if something offends me then it is ME that should move and NOT THEM.
If some of you never want to leave your hermetically sealed bubble of ME then you probably don't enjoy much of the true fun of the travellers delight - revelling in other cultures and learning that the differences are what makes the world not one big strip mall.
So let's try to remember why we like to travel. And if you aren't enjoying where you are, then find someplace new.
Peace in the New Year.
I am a non-smoker, but when in countries where it is permitted or, in some cases, enforced - I remember I am a visitor and if something offends me then it is ME that should move and NOT THEM.
If some of you never want to leave your hermetically sealed bubble of ME then you probably don't enjoy much of the true fun of the travellers delight - revelling in other cultures and learning that the differences are what makes the world not one big strip mall.
So let's try to remember why we like to travel. And if you aren't enjoying where you are, then find someplace new.
Peace in the New Year.
Dec 26th, 2007, 04:24 PM
#52
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<I am a non-smoker, but when in countries where it is permitted or, in some cases, enforced - I remember I am a visitor and if something offends me then it is ME that should move and NOT THEM.>
Obviously but what we are debating here are the laws themselves not if we should protest them abroad.
And these laws IMO are perfectly in order to promote the common good and not the freedom of someone to harm the common good
Europe has become an exemplar in strict laws, at least in key countries like Ireland, italy, England, Scotland, France and others - laws with very few exceptions
like the U.S. seems moving towards state by state.
But when i go in a cafe in say Amsterdam i don't feel like making a fuss - yes the smoke there is part of the journey, like it or not
And you can say the same about wearing a veil in Moslem countries - no right to protest but go along as a tourist - when in Rome, yes do as Romans do
Obviously but what we are debating here are the laws themselves not if we should protest them abroad.
And these laws IMO are perfectly in order to promote the common good and not the freedom of someone to harm the common good
Europe has become an exemplar in strict laws, at least in key countries like Ireland, italy, England, Scotland, France and others - laws with very few exceptions
like the U.S. seems moving towards state by state.
But when i go in a cafe in say Amsterdam i don't feel like making a fuss - yes the smoke there is part of the journey, like it or not
And you can say the same about wearing a veil in Moslem countries - no right to protest but go along as a tourist - when in Rome, yes do as Romans do
Dec 27th, 2007, 01:49 AM
#54
Sheesha places have become a big fad in Paris over the last 4 or 5 years. There are at least 50 places for this. Theoretically, this is their last week of existence, because I really don't think that they'll make it just selling tea.
Dec 27th, 2007, 04:03 AM
#55
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Sheesha i gather is a hookah
we've had an avalanche of hookah-smoking cafes and pubs as well and in my state a smoking ban was just voted down so they seem still popular, especially with some of the 40,000 college kids in town
we've had an avalanche of hookah-smoking cafes and pubs as well and in my state a smoking ban was just voted down so they seem still popular, especially with some of the 40,000 college kids in town
Dec 27th, 2007, 10:45 AM
#56
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<<15 out of 50 states have smoking bans similar in scope to those in Europe>>
Just to be clear, the Wiki map shows 21, not 15, states with bans in all categories--restaurants, bars and indoor non-hospitality workplaces (including 5 of the 7 most populous states). 5 states (including FL, the 4th most populous state) have statewide bans on restaurants and indoor workplaces but not bars. 2 states have restaurant-only bans (including GA, the 9th most populous state), and New Hampshire has a bars and restaurants ban.
TX is the most populous state without a statewide ban, but it appears that all of the major cities in that state have a ban.
Just to be clear, the Wiki map shows 21, not 15, states with bans in all categories--restaurants, bars and indoor non-hospitality workplaces (including 5 of the 7 most populous states). 5 states (including FL, the 4th most populous state) have statewide bans on restaurants and indoor workplaces but not bars. 2 states have restaurant-only bans (including GA, the 9th most populous state), and New Hampshire has a bars and restaurants ban.
TX is the most populous state without a statewide ban, but it appears that all of the major cities in that state have a ban.
Dec 27th, 2007, 10:50 AM
#58
The smoking ban in France suffered a major setback today, as apparently there was something unclear about exactly when smoking in public places becomes illegal on January 1st, 2008. This concerned particularly such places as discotheques, casinos, et al. What would happen at midnight on January 1st? Would police come to raid the establishments?
Therefore, it has been decided that the ban begins on January 2nd.
Therefore, it has been decided that the ban begins on January 2nd.
Dec 27th, 2007, 11:39 AM
#59
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Excellent, as we'll be visiting in June! Our city, Louisville, recently had the ban overturned due to a technicality, but we hope to have it in full swing in 2 weeks. We were loving it, being able to go out dancing again. We will never have a full state ban, IMO, but keep chipping away at the local level. We really noticed lots of smoking in Switzerland, Austria and Germany over the last 3 summers. We did mostly outdoor dining, but at times noticed almost EVERY single table filled with smokers! That was awful!
Dec 28th, 2007, 08:58 AM
#60
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PalenQ:
The debate of the smoke issue is really secondary. By the tone of your response, it is clear to me that you want your opinions of smoke put on everyone. If a shop owner wants to cater to a smoking clientele, these bans prohibit that. Just because you abhor smoke, smoking and smokers doesn't necesarily mean that no person should smoke.
Instead of a ban, wouldn't a law requiring all businesses to clearly post outside and on all advertising that they ban or allow smoking meet your criteria? That way you would always be able to control whether smokers were out to get you killed, AND, smokers would be able to kill themselves. The underlying issue is choice. Yours clearly is to not be around smoking.
BTW, I AM A NON SMOKER WHO APPRECITIATES THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE.
These bans eliminate choice - from the business owner.
The debate of the smoke issue is really secondary. By the tone of your response, it is clear to me that you want your opinions of smoke put on everyone. If a shop owner wants to cater to a smoking clientele, these bans prohibit that. Just because you abhor smoke, smoking and smokers doesn't necesarily mean that no person should smoke.
Instead of a ban, wouldn't a law requiring all businesses to clearly post outside and on all advertising that they ban or allow smoking meet your criteria? That way you would always be able to control whether smokers were out to get you killed, AND, smokers would be able to kill themselves. The underlying issue is choice. Yours clearly is to not be around smoking.
BTW, I AM A NON SMOKER WHO APPRECITIATES THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE.
These bans eliminate choice - from the business owner.
