For experienced (older) travelers, has Europe changed?
Jul 20th, 2006, 05:13 AM
#83
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I will ask the moderators to close this thread...when nessundorma cannot avoid inserting expletives and the majority of the posts are now off topic and on to commentary...it defeats the original question and no longer is a source of genuinely helpful parties that want nothing more than to promote their views and interpretations.
Jul 20th, 2006, 05:49 AM
#84
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You start a troll thread and then ask the moderators to close it because people expressed their contempt for how you behave on the board?
No wonder you are so enamoured of your dear friend from Holland: She's an immigrant who complains about immigrants stinking up a country, as if having bigots move here didn't damage OUR culture, and you put up a mean-spirited, ignorant thread and pretend you are open to rebuttal but what you really reach for is censorship.
Why not just emigrate someplace else?
No wonder you are so enamoured of your dear friend from Holland: She's an immigrant who complains about immigrants stinking up a country, as if having bigots move here didn't damage OUR culture, and you put up a mean-spirited, ignorant thread and pretend you are open to rebuttal but what you really reach for is censorship.
Why not just emigrate someplace else?
Jul 20th, 2006, 06:24 AM
#85
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I do think it's a shame, however, if it's true that the Dutch schools don't feel like they can have "Dutch days" anymore. As a long time (non-native) resident in Texas, I'm amazed that the kids have not one but TWO full years of Texas history in school (4th and 7th grades). It doesn't matter if you just moved here from China last week, you're by gosh gonna learn Texas history; and if there is a pageant, you may end up playing Davy Crocket!
Jul 20th, 2006, 06:37 AM
#87
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Also in San Antonio we celebrate Fiesta Week which is a lots of fun ..Many people works half day during the famous Battle of Flower.
Also we celebrate Cinquo de Mayo, which is equivalent to our Fourth July.
Of course over 60% of the city population is Hispanic,but both cultures get along pretty well.
Also we celebrate Cinquo de Mayo, which is equivalent to our Fourth July.
Of course over 60% of the city population is Hispanic,but both cultures get along pretty well.
Jul 20th, 2006, 06:39 AM
#88
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One only needs to look at recent (as in, the past year) events all over France to see what immigration can do for a country. Ma23peas' Dutch friend is certainly justified in her observations as to what's happening in Holland.
Jul 20th, 2006, 08:18 AM
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I'm surprised that hanl believes Muslim immigrants are well-integrated into French society after last Fall's lengthy period of riots around Paris. According to the BBC unemployment rates for foreigners is 1.5x higher than for white Frenchmen even after adjusting for education. In some instances the ratio is even wider - university graduates of North African extraction living in France "enjoy" a 26% unemployment rate compared to 5% for white French graduates. Racial and social discrimination is endemic - many immigrants are effectively confined in the many large housing projects built up at great distances from the pleasant city centers. The UK seems to be doing a decent job of it but the continental countries clearly have a lot of work ahead of them in integrating their immigrant populations.
But here I am descending into an argument that I had tried to avoid in my last post. Without wishing that the Dutch all walk around in funny wooden clogs and the French all wear berets and chain-smoke Galouise cigarettes , I do think that something important is being lost in this great dash toward European Union. I've noticed that many Europeans are uncomfortable with the casual pride Americans take in displaying our flag, singing our anthem, and making other patriotic displays. Actually, now that I think about it, most Berkleyites seem just as uncomfortable with it. And that's really too bad. Patriotism is great, nationalism is great, and cultural differences are great too - at least the ones that don't abrogate human rights. That's why we travel, isn't it? Missypie wrote that an important part of travel is having your expectations busted open - that's just fine unless the expectation that's busted is the hope of discovering new and interesting cultures. To put it simply, Pan-Europe sucks, and if the day comes that I don't notice any differences when crossing a European border I will be very distressed and disappointed.
But here I am descending into an argument that I had tried to avoid in my last post. Without wishing that the Dutch all walk around in funny wooden clogs and the French all wear berets and chain-smoke Galouise cigarettes , I do think that something important is being lost in this great dash toward European Union. I've noticed that many Europeans are uncomfortable with the casual pride Americans take in displaying our flag, singing our anthem, and making other patriotic displays. Actually, now that I think about it, most Berkleyites seem just as uncomfortable with it. And that's really too bad. Patriotism is great, nationalism is great, and cultural differences are great too - at least the ones that don't abrogate human rights. That's why we travel, isn't it? Missypie wrote that an important part of travel is having your expectations busted open - that's just fine unless the expectation that's busted is the hope of discovering new and interesting cultures. To put it simply, Pan-Europe sucks, and if the day comes that I don't notice any differences when crossing a European border I will be very distressed and disappointed.
Jul 20th, 2006, 08:39 AM
#90
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Nessundorma...if I could reply to you on private mail..I most certainly would. I do not feel this thread is a place to attack anyone...however you have seen fit to attack me, my post, your erroneous interpretation of it, your skewed view on the world in general...for that I do feel this thread should be closed or you should try hard to restrain yourself and your sour attitude. I find nothing of value in your responses, but I do find mean-spirited attacks and pure hogwash!
These forums are not here for rebuttal, they are here to inform and encourage European travel. Not one thing in your posts reflect either of those intentions. Your hostility and rude manor belie the innocuous original post.
But, I am grateful that most of the posters received my post in consideration and thoughtfulness. Two things I think you're running short on.
These forums are not here for rebuttal, they are here to inform and encourage European travel. Not one thing in your posts reflect either of those intentions. Your hostility and rude manor belie the innocuous original post.
But, I am grateful that most of the posters received my post in consideration and thoughtfulness. Two things I think you're running short on.
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:10 AM
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to get entry into the EU the citeria stipulates the country in question must promulgate equality and identity among its minorities. This equally apllies to the country as a whole, don't think globalisation will wipe out the thousands of European cultures, it won't. If anything many are seeing a resurgence, some examples being the rebirth of languages taught now in schools such as the Gaelic, Romany and Basque languages.
Another point, London has always been vastly multicultural, taking in wave after wave of immigrants for literally millennia. Today the city prides itself on being the worlds most cosmpolitan place (vying it out with Toronto). 350 languages are spoken and 1/3 are non-white and another 1/3 are foreign born. Medieval London was 1/3 foreign born too, about the same as today. By the 1500s there were 20,000 Africans living there, when the first Englishman set foot in India, London already had 3000 Indians. Some estimates put it that 50 percent of all native English Londoners are descended from the French Huguenot refugees.
What happened to all these successive waves of immigrants through the centuries? They assimilated - a culture that tries not to impose its own culture on the newcomers finds within them a far more amenable predilection to become a memeber of that dominant culture. For example no one needs to have to swear on a flag or even speak English, but almost everyone does speak it you'll find and the percentage of immigrant children who 'feel' British are 80-90 percent. In France where assimilation is enforced, the equivalent study records a mere 50 percent. Also intermarriage is said to be the highest in the world - blacks and East Asians are more likely to marry outside their race than within, for South Asians its half.
btw I live in Cockney East London, its exactly the same banter and gossip, the trips down dark pubs and fruit and veg markets, the smoking and laughs, its just that many of the people are Muslim and Bangladeshi. Theres a muslim girl in Hijab in my local who tells me EVERYTHING about EVERYONE, and who winks at me disconcertingly. When I first moved here I thought the muslims were conservative and seperate here, but pull away the national dress and theres no difference beneath.
The biggest threat to the local culture has come not from the successive waves of French, Chinese, Jewish, and Bangladeshi immigration, not even the carpet bombing of WWII, or the decline of the industry and docklands, - its the brand spanking new 'trendies' taking over the working class neighbourhoods, the highrise offices inching their way eastward, the wine bars, DJ bars and masses of clubs taking over the old boozers.
Another point, London has always been vastly multicultural, taking in wave after wave of immigrants for literally millennia. Today the city prides itself on being the worlds most cosmpolitan place (vying it out with Toronto). 350 languages are spoken and 1/3 are non-white and another 1/3 are foreign born. Medieval London was 1/3 foreign born too, about the same as today. By the 1500s there were 20,000 Africans living there, when the first Englishman set foot in India, London already had 3000 Indians. Some estimates put it that 50 percent of all native English Londoners are descended from the French Huguenot refugees.
What happened to all these successive waves of immigrants through the centuries? They assimilated - a culture that tries not to impose its own culture on the newcomers finds within them a far more amenable predilection to become a memeber of that dominant culture. For example no one needs to have to swear on a flag or even speak English, but almost everyone does speak it you'll find and the percentage of immigrant children who 'feel' British are 80-90 percent. In France where assimilation is enforced, the equivalent study records a mere 50 percent. Also intermarriage is said to be the highest in the world - blacks and East Asians are more likely to marry outside their race than within, for South Asians its half.
btw I live in Cockney East London, its exactly the same banter and gossip, the trips down dark pubs and fruit and veg markets, the smoking and laughs, its just that many of the people are Muslim and Bangladeshi. Theres a muslim girl in Hijab in my local who tells me EVERYTHING about EVERYONE, and who winks at me disconcertingly. When I first moved here I thought the muslims were conservative and seperate here, but pull away the national dress and theres no difference beneath.
The biggest threat to the local culture has come not from the successive waves of French, Chinese, Jewish, and Bangladeshi immigration, not even the carpet bombing of WWII, or the decline of the industry and docklands, - its the brand spanking new 'trendies' taking over the working class neighbourhoods, the highrise offices inching their way eastward, the wine bars, DJ bars and masses of clubs taking over the old boozers.
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:18 AM
#92
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>One only needs to look at recent (as in, the past year) events all over France to see what immigration can do for a country.<
Pish tosh and poo.
The young men who were rioting in France were 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation French, born in metropolitan France.
The problem is that the French, for all of the years that they were pleased to tell the US about how to deal with their Negro problem, did nearly nothing to assimilate these folks.
A nation can't just tell immigrants that they are now citizens. They must be educated, provided jobs and assimilated.
Pish tosh and poo.
The young men who were rioting in France were 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation French, born in metropolitan France.
The problem is that the French, for all of the years that they were pleased to tell the US about how to deal with their Negro problem, did nearly nothing to assimilate these folks.
A nation can't just tell immigrants that they are now citizens. They must be educated, provided jobs and assimilated.
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:22 AM
#93
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"You start a troll thread and then ask the moderators to close it because people expressed their contempt for how you behave on the board?"
Nessundorma...how ma23peas has behaved? That's rich!! I'm surprised you haven't been banned by now.
Nessundorma...how ma23peas has behaved? That's rich!! I'm surprised you haven't been banned by now.
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:30 AM
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When they say London is changing, they mean the speed in which the city is throwing off the staid image of ye olde Cheshire cheese - all wet dogs and men in bowler hats. But remeber this is an image, not a reality its shrugging off - this change has been going on for decades years now - just don't come expecting genteel streets and reserved people. All that is a stereotype that was NEVER an honest reality, even in the 50s.
You will see royalty and pomp - but they carry 21st century guns alongside their red uniforms and bearskin hats, the guards are of different races (and if you look carefully, genders too).
You will see bowler hats and alot of pinstripes, but only on trendies.
You'll see red buses but sadly the old routemasters have been replaced by red 'bendy buses' much to the chagrin of just about everybody. Routemasters now service as tour buses
traditional pubs will still be in abundance, but there are literally thousands of bars, DJ bars, cafes, gastropubs and clubs now to choose from too. Incidentally the traditional 11pm closing time has just been dropped too (yay!).
In short you'll still see all the old regalia, ceremony and old architecture (20,000 protected buildings), but all of that lies now alongside one of the most plural cities, and the fastest developing too (don't worry, new development goes onto brownfield industrial sites and in place of modern 60s era mostrosities). Its touted as currently having the best nightlife and art scenes in the world (do make the most of that before it goes to Madrid or Istanbul) alongside some of the most venerable institutions.
The old and new mix like nowhere else here. The whole appeal and zetgeist of todays London is that its such a ready mix of a very modern society and very traditional institutions. The trick is to accept that and make the most of it, just don't look solely for the past - it is there, but you'll have to do a whole lot of blotting out to blinker your experience enough.
You will see royalty and pomp - but they carry 21st century guns alongside their red uniforms and bearskin hats, the guards are of different races (and if you look carefully, genders too).
You will see bowler hats and alot of pinstripes, but only on trendies.
You'll see red buses but sadly the old routemasters have been replaced by red 'bendy buses' much to the chagrin of just about everybody. Routemasters now service as tour buses
traditional pubs will still be in abundance, but there are literally thousands of bars, DJ bars, cafes, gastropubs and clubs now to choose from too. Incidentally the traditional 11pm closing time has just been dropped too (yay!).
In short you'll still see all the old regalia, ceremony and old architecture (20,000 protected buildings), but all of that lies now alongside one of the most plural cities, and the fastest developing too (don't worry, new development goes onto brownfield industrial sites and in place of modern 60s era mostrosities). Its touted as currently having the best nightlife and art scenes in the world (do make the most of that before it goes to Madrid or Istanbul) alongside some of the most venerable institutions.
The old and new mix like nowhere else here. The whole appeal and zetgeist of todays London is that its such a ready mix of a very modern society and very traditional institutions. The trick is to accept that and make the most of it, just don't look solely for the past - it is there, but you'll have to do a whole lot of blotting out to blinker your experience enough.
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:33 AM
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ira, the reason why so many late generation men rioted was precisely that France followed such an aggressive assimilation policy. That utterly alienates everyone involved, history shows that time and time again. Read my post just before yours for more on that.
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:38 AM
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"Routemasters now service as tour buses" - except there are a couple of routes which still use routemasters. Was in London the week before last and caught a 15 from the Strand - had to stay on until the end of the route (only Tower of London) becuase it was a routemaster. Apparently they are going to keep them in operation until after the Olympics (that is what the conductor told me)
Jul 20th, 2006, 09:39 AM
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The biggest change I have noticed in the UK since I first went there about 30 years ago is that the food in pubs and restaurants is a lot better! I attribute it to the influx of immigrants who can cook.
Jul 20th, 2006, 11:22 AM
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Bobludlow, I wasn't trying to say that all Muslim populations are integrated. I was just reacting to the comment that Europe will have to get used to having Muslim immigrants.
I'm not trying to pretend that it's all fluffy bunnies and group hugs in France - of course there is a lot of discontent, discrimination and racism.
What I said was that many (not all, not most) Muslims *are* integrated into the community in France and the UK. What I said came from my own personal experience, not hearsay or media interpretations. I have a good number of friends and acquaintances in Paris of North African (muslim) origin living very prosperous and, yes, integrated lives (by that I mean their lifestyle resembles the French rather than the North-African one, and they consider themselves French). Perhaps these people aren't in the majority, but then neither were the rioting youths torching cars.
I'm not trying to pretend that it's all fluffy bunnies and group hugs in France - of course there is a lot of discontent, discrimination and racism.
What I said was that many (not all, not most) Muslims *are* integrated into the community in France and the UK. What I said came from my own personal experience, not hearsay or media interpretations. I have a good number of friends and acquaintances in Paris of North African (muslim) origin living very prosperous and, yes, integrated lives (by that I mean their lifestyle resembles the French rather than the North-African one, and they consider themselves French). Perhaps these people aren't in the majority, but then neither were the rioting youths torching cars.
