Follow-up to posting on Europe lovers tried Vietnam
Jan 24th, 2007, 05:55 AM
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Follow-up to posting on Europe lovers tried Vietnam
Frankly, I do not know why I’m even taking the time, but here goes. That thread has taken on a life of its own & I give up. In brief, for those of you who got lost somewhere in your own agendas.
We liked Vietnam overall. Will the next vacation we go on be there? No. It will more likely be our usual combination of several 5-7 day rentals of an apartment or house in quiet places in Europe where we can be active but also enjoy relaxing with a glass of wine and some good cheese. Or, it might be another bike trip in Europe. Will we ever try another trip in Asia? Yes, probably. We have thought about India, Malaysia and northern Thailand. But, this is not on the horizon immediately because of time and money constraints.
Do I realize that Vietnam is not representative of all of Asia? Yes! But, these message boards are only broken down into Europe and Asia. There is no other way to further differentiate in a general posting. I don’t believe that anywhere I said I disliked Asia.
The trip was well-researched, and we knew exactly what we were getting into. We decided we wanted to see the real country rather than the typical tourist venues and resorts, and this is what we did. This is also what we typically do in Europe. We have probably been to more off-the-beaten path European places than 95% of the posters on this forum, and we are typically budget travellers rather than 4* or 5* travellers. We have also taken many on-the-ground trips in Europe, including multi-day biking and hiking trips. In fact, this is what made us want to see Vietnam from the ground. One experiences a culture in a completely different way by actually interacting while biking or walking than through the windows of a car or bus.
Our trip was limited to one day in Hanoi and one day in Saigon, so my observations about those major cities are not a major part of our impressions. The rest of the time was spent very, very far away from any typical tourist venues. In my observations in my original post I did not complain about using the bushes for a toilet, sleeping on a straw mat with extra hay stuffed under it for our comfort, sleeping in unheated places in the mountains in temperatures that were probably upper 40s F, hiking 10-15 miles into the back country, taking the local ferries, eating from street kitchens or eating unidentifiable foods etc., all of which we did. I merely said that those of us who are lucky enough to live in more developed countries should count our blessings that we do not have to live such hard lives. I believe all of you who are following this thread have enough discretionary funds to travel and enjoy your leisure, have access to good healthcare, live in warm houses, have time-saving appliances, live in sanitary conditions with high standards of hygiene, have had the opportunity to receive a good education, and do not spend your days doing extremely hard manual labor etc. This is in direct opposition to the lives of many, many people we saw and met. (Yes, we did homestays and visited in homes of a number of Vietnamese.) While many were seemingly happy with their personal lives, others were obviously hoping for something better for themselves and their families.
Yes, the noise, incessant traffic and dirt did eventually get to us, as did the sheer number of people. Yes, the poverty was appalling, and it certainly made us once again rethink the emphasis that our own culture puts on materialism.
If anyone is truly interested, I recommend the book Catfish and Mandala which recounts the experiences of a man whose family escaped from Vietnam to the US in the 1970s. He returns to his home country & travels the length of it by bicycle.
We liked Vietnam overall. Will the next vacation we go on be there? No. It will more likely be our usual combination of several 5-7 day rentals of an apartment or house in quiet places in Europe where we can be active but also enjoy relaxing with a glass of wine and some good cheese. Or, it might be another bike trip in Europe. Will we ever try another trip in Asia? Yes, probably. We have thought about India, Malaysia and northern Thailand. But, this is not on the horizon immediately because of time and money constraints.
Do I realize that Vietnam is not representative of all of Asia? Yes! But, these message boards are only broken down into Europe and Asia. There is no other way to further differentiate in a general posting. I don’t believe that anywhere I said I disliked Asia.
The trip was well-researched, and we knew exactly what we were getting into. We decided we wanted to see the real country rather than the typical tourist venues and resorts, and this is what we did. This is also what we typically do in Europe. We have probably been to more off-the-beaten path European places than 95% of the posters on this forum, and we are typically budget travellers rather than 4* or 5* travellers. We have also taken many on-the-ground trips in Europe, including multi-day biking and hiking trips. In fact, this is what made us want to see Vietnam from the ground. One experiences a culture in a completely different way by actually interacting while biking or walking than through the windows of a car or bus.
Our trip was limited to one day in Hanoi and one day in Saigon, so my observations about those major cities are not a major part of our impressions. The rest of the time was spent very, very far away from any typical tourist venues. In my observations in my original post I did not complain about using the bushes for a toilet, sleeping on a straw mat with extra hay stuffed under it for our comfort, sleeping in unheated places in the mountains in temperatures that were probably upper 40s F, hiking 10-15 miles into the back country, taking the local ferries, eating from street kitchens or eating unidentifiable foods etc., all of which we did. I merely said that those of us who are lucky enough to live in more developed countries should count our blessings that we do not have to live such hard lives. I believe all of you who are following this thread have enough discretionary funds to travel and enjoy your leisure, have access to good healthcare, live in warm houses, have time-saving appliances, live in sanitary conditions with high standards of hygiene, have had the opportunity to receive a good education, and do not spend your days doing extremely hard manual labor etc. This is in direct opposition to the lives of many, many people we saw and met. (Yes, we did homestays and visited in homes of a number of Vietnamese.) While many were seemingly happy with their personal lives, others were obviously hoping for something better for themselves and their families.
Yes, the noise, incessant traffic and dirt did eventually get to us, as did the sheer number of people. Yes, the poverty was appalling, and it certainly made us once again rethink the emphasis that our own culture puts on materialism.
If anyone is truly interested, I recommend the book Catfish and Mandala which recounts the experiences of a man whose family escaped from Vietnam to the US in the 1970s. He returns to his home country & travels the length of it by bicycle.
Jan 24th, 2007, 06:04 AM
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Frankly, I don;t understand why you are wasting your OWN time "explaining" why you did what you did, etc.
If people don't accept that then it is too bad..move on. Otherwise this will end up sounding like that other recent attempt to resurrect an "improved" thread.
If people don't accept that then it is too bad..move on. Otherwise this will end up sounding like that other recent attempt to resurrect an "improved" thread.
Jan 24th, 2007, 07:23 AM
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Yes, don't be too concerned about it. We all know from experience that there are some people who come to forums only to find an opportunity to bash other people. It goes with the medium that allows pretty much total anonymity and very little accountability.
If you're going to post, then some of thse folks will come after you. I did not read every response to your original thread, so I'm not saying that everyone who had less than a postive response to your original post is in this category. Sometimes people just honestly disagree about something, too.
If you're going to post, then some of thse folks will come after you. I did not read every response to your original thread, so I'm not saying that everyone who had less than a postive response to your original post is in this category. Sometimes people just honestly disagree about something, too.
Jan 24th, 2007, 08:07 AM
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I doubt Julie received "terrible emotional wounds" from the drive-bys on the OP, but it is always eye-opening to realize that some people just insist that you see/feel/believe exactly as they do and if you don't, well you are worthless. Thank you for your trip report julies and I hope you have many more trips of whatever style you wish.
Jan 24th, 2007, 08:42 AM
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I'm really glad this thread (as well as the original) was on the Europe forum. Otherwise I would not have seen it. This is not a trip report about a trip to Asia. This is a comparison of trips to Europe and a trip to Asia, and the impressions of someone who has taken both types of trips. I find the concept fascinating and admire the original poster for undertaking this kind of challenging travel.
In my opinion, being thankful for one's life is not the kind of sentiment that should open a person to criticism, but what do I know?
In my opinion, being thankful for one's life is not the kind of sentiment that should open a person to criticism, but what do I know?
Jan 24th, 2007, 08:56 AM
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Julies,
I just read the entire first thread. I believe you gave an interesting and balanced account of your impressions.
Pay no attention to those posters who use this board to push their own political agendas.
I just read the entire first thread. I believe you gave an interesting and balanced account of your impressions.
Pay no attention to those posters who use this board to push their own political agendas.
Jan 25th, 2007, 06:43 PM
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I am also glad this was on the Europe board, as it gives regularly European travellers an interesting perspective. I really enjoy your posts, and agree you have nothing to apologize for. Thank you for your detailed observations.
Jan 25th, 2007, 07:32 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly with what was posted by Nikki and Eleni. I was very impressed by your original post and appreciate your honest perspective.
However, when the thread gets crazy, I always back off. I come to Fodors for information and encouragement, constructive criticism when necessary. But negativity, sniping and back-biting I can find elsewhere!
Those of us without an agenda or pre-conceived notions understood completely what you were saying, julies. You have no reason to feel badly.
However, when the thread gets crazy, I always back off. I come to Fodors for information and encouragement, constructive criticism when necessary. But negativity, sniping and back-biting I can find elsewhere!
Those of us without an agenda or pre-conceived notions understood completely what you were saying, julies. You have no reason to feel badly.
Jan 25th, 2007, 07:49 PM
#14
julies -
I applaud you for stepping out of your comfort zone and for posting your honest impressions. I'm an American living in a remote part of Indonesia, and believe me, I can relate to a lot of what you've described.
You don't owe an explanation to anyone.
Happy travels.
I applaud you for stepping out of your comfort zone and for posting your honest impressions. I'm an American living in a remote part of Indonesia, and believe me, I can relate to a lot of what you've described.
You don't owe an explanation to anyone.
Happy travels.
Jan 26th, 2007, 01:11 AM
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I just have to say that this sentence is one of the best lines I've read here in a long time.
"In brief, for those of you <b>who got lost somewhere in your own agendas.</b>
Some may need a GPS to get out of theirs.
Just consider the source, Julies. I enjoyed reading about your adventures & impressions.
"In brief, for those of you <b>who got lost somewhere in your own agendas.</b>
Some may need a GPS to get out of theirs.
Just consider the source, Julies. I enjoyed reading about your adventures & impressions.
Jan 26th, 2007, 05:35 AM
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Having been to Vietnam 3 times and various places in Europe 5 times I understand exactly what you are saying.
I could not have done Vietnam as you did the first time. Mine was with a car, driver, and guide,but I have seen what you are describing. My next trip will be to Europe,although I would not trade my experiences in Asia. Cambodia I found even harder than Vietnam. Fortunately by my 3rd trip to Vietnam I had made Vietnamese friends and had the time of my life with them and on my own also.
Thanks for sharing and being so honest about your trip.
I could not have done Vietnam as you did the first time. Mine was with a car, driver, and guide,but I have seen what you are describing. My next trip will be to Europe,although I would not trade my experiences in Asia. Cambodia I found even harder than Vietnam. Fortunately by my 3rd trip to Vietnam I had made Vietnamese friends and had the time of my life with them and on my own also.
Thanks for sharing and being so honest about your trip.
Jan 26th, 2007, 08:01 AM
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Julies -
I can't tell you how much I admire both your travels and your reports. Thank you for this one with its additional details of your trip.
I think I can understand "why you are taking the time" to clarify things - it is unbelievably frustrating to be misunderstood. It may be disheartening and discouraging to be bashed for opinions that are truly yours, but to be bashed for opinions that are the figment of the imaginations of inattentive readers is even more galling!
What struck me the most as I read many comments on the original post was how inaccurately some of the people had construed what you actually said. I wanted to send many of them back to Reading Comprehension 101.
Ah well it all goes to make a life, right? And I have to say the reactions to your original post inadvertently provided a very valuable (and humorous - in a black humor kind of way) lesson for many of us in the ridiculousness of group-think based on inaccurate interpretations of the data.
Thanks again.
I can't tell you how much I admire both your travels and your reports. Thank you for this one with its additional details of your trip.
I think I can understand "why you are taking the time" to clarify things - it is unbelievably frustrating to be misunderstood. It may be disheartening and discouraging to be bashed for opinions that are truly yours, but to be bashed for opinions that are the figment of the imaginations of inattentive readers is even more galling!
What struck me the most as I read many comments on the original post was how inaccurately some of the people had construed what you actually said. I wanted to send many of them back to Reading Comprehension 101.
Ah well it all goes to make a life, right? And I have to say the reactions to your original post inadvertently provided a very valuable (and humorous - in a black humor kind of way) lesson for many of us in the ridiculousness of group-think based on inaccurate interpretations of the data.
Thanks again.
Jan 26th, 2007, 08:11 AM
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There are those looking to find fault in every post, and many of them are not careful readers. I posted yesterday that I had looked up the EU rules on changing the clock to summer time and wondered if every country in the EU followed them. Someone posted "Whose rules? America's rules?!" No...I said in my post I had looked at the EU rules. My only hope is that those people are using this board to take out their agressions and that they're really much nicer in person.
