tomripley

I’ve been a Fodorite for some time, but I now may have to switch my allegiance. For one thing, Fodor’s keeps changing the format of their Gold Guides. I know that they have to update them – make them look new to keep people buying year after year, even when the information doesn’t change all that much – but the books are getting less and less user-friendly.

I was recently browsing through two brand-new Fodor’s guides: Spain 2008 and just-developed Eastern & Central Europe. The Smart Travel Tips section has been revised for the worse. I kept looking through it for gay travel advice until I realized that there wasn’t any. I turned to the individual cities’ Nightlife sections and there was absolutely no information about the gay scene anywhere (anywhere I checked, anyway). I’ve been through Central Europe, which has a lively gay scene, so Fodor’s does its readers a disservice by not mentioning it. I’ve never been to Spain so I was curious to know which destinations would be more gay-friendly. All the book did was pay lip-service to the notion that Spain was tolerant.

I can’t explain this move. There are no good travel guides designed exclusively for gay and lesbian travelers (the ones I’ve seen seem to be designed for sex tourists). Gay travelers need certain information before they travel overseas. For example, the 2007 Fodor’s Caribbean guide had some very useful advice for gay travelers – that Puerto Rico had the only lively gay scene in the Caribbean and that the former British colonies are violently anti-gay (in other words, gay travelers are in physical danger there).

Perhaps Fodor’s fan base has grown more conservative. Maybe it sees its home-base as families. Yet, I fail to see why Fodor’s would suddenly alienate a demographic that is known for its love of travel and its disposable income.

Gay travelers would fare better with Lonely Planet.

JeanneB

So makes Fodors "Anti-Gay"?

BTilke

I finally had a chance to see some of the new Fodors Gold Guides by browsing the Waterstone's on Piccadilly (Fodors guides are not sold in most British bookstores). I didn't notice the lack of gay travel advice, but now that you've pointed it out, you're right, nothing was included. TimeOut guides generally include gay travel sections (clubs, general advice, etc.), better than Rough Guides IMO, but then I don't particularly care for the Rough Guides, period.

The thing I didn't like about the new Fodors GG was the way they used our postings. I've been quoted in a few books and it's nice to see your name on a chapter opening page but...I think readers would be better served if the guides used MORE posts and sprinkled them throughout the chapters at relevant points, rather than just a precious few at the front of each chapter. Even if using more posts means eliminating the much-appreciated complimentary guidebook reward

stfc

Rather a confrontational first post Mr Ripley. I just did a search for 'gay' on the Europe board and 100+ references came up.

Does the fact that somebody is 'gay' matter when touring? Only if your behaviour is overtly 'gay' I suspect when it becomes a public display, and as you might know better than me, different people react differently to that. I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.

Bye bye, off to the Rough Guide with you.

twk

I've never understood this. What about including tips for blacks, or Jews? Surely there are other groups that could have specific travel tips included for them, and a lot of them more directly related to travel concerns (such as for the mobility impaired).

joe4212

welcome tom

You've confused me. Are you saying that Fodor's previously included references for gay travelers in their guides but have now removed them?

stfc says:

>I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.<

Ummmm, I think you are already pretty well served with guides presently available. No need to feel offended

joe

janisj

"I’ve been a Fodorite for some time, but I now may have to switch my allegiance. "

If so, then you are either a coward and changed your screen name to post this - OR - you are not telling the truth about being a member for "some time".

"Perhaps Fodor’s fan base has grown more conservative. "

OMG!! - Have you taken a look in the Lounge??

BTW - to show how ridiculous this is -- click on DESTINATIONS above. The very first nightclub listed in Paris is 3W - "a pillar of the lesbian scene"

kenderina

I don't feel anyone is anti-disabled because guides lack of good info for disabled travellers.
But at the same time I don't expect general guides to have info for every kind of traveller...but the average one. They are supposed to sell a lot of guides

PalenQ

To say that Fodor's is anti-gay because there is perhaps a dearth of gay travel stuff included is simply rubbish - why as you claim gay travel stuff is not covered in more depth may be for many reasons but not IMO because "Fodor's is now Anti-Gay"

You raise good points in your text but your headline is very off-putting.

tomripley

Hmm…I was expecting the bigoted backlash, but not quite so quickly. Of course, these posts are generally poor in quality (consider JeanneB’s grammatical monstrosity: ‘So makes Fodors "Anti-Gay"?”’) But, since people have time on their hands, there are a few things that should be pointed out:

1. First, stfc, my tone was factual, not “confrontational.” There has been gay travel advice in every Fodor’s guide I’ve seen until this new crop of just-published books. My post (1) alerts gay travelers that this is no longer the case and that they should buy other guides and (2) may make the good people at Fodor’s reconsider their egregious editorial decision.
2. Again, stfc, there are many Internet hits for “gay Europe.” But, if that argument were not fallacious, why would anybody need to purchase any travel guide at all. I always check the Internet as well (usually the sites that Fodor’s recommends, although they’ve left off even that information this time around) but we buy Fodor’s guides because they are (or were) reliable guides written by trusted travel writers, employed by a brand we trusted. It says something rather unfortunate when Wikitravel.org now provides better information that Fodor’s.
3. Lastly, stfc (is that you Bill O’Reilly?), you make the wild claim that “I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.” Well, my dear delusional middle-aged friend, that’s because ALMOST ALL TRAVEL GUIDES ARE AIMED AT YOU. Enjoy your complacency – I honestly don’t begrudge it you. (Although, the fact that you are familiar with Rough Guides says a bit about your extracurricular interests.)
4. Twk, you are right – there should be travel tips aimed at blacks, Jews, and the handicapped. Actually, I forgot to check – usually, Fodor’s does include travel tips for differently-abled persons, but they may have done away with that as well. If Jewish or black people are in physical danger if they travel to certain parts of the world (as I believe they are) it is their right – actually, their duty – to know about it beforehand. There are some parts of the world apparently where homosexuality is a criminal act and may be punishable by the death penalty (Wikitravel “Gay and Lesbian Travel”). If any of us are foolish enough to go to these places and act “overtly ‘gay’” (to use stfc’s term) by holding hands, then we may be in a bit of trouble. For that reasons, interesting travel destinations such as Poland and the Cayman Islands now seem a bit less interesting.

All this leads the average homosexual to ask: Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome? That’s a question Fodor’s no longer answers. I know, we homosexuals are a troublesome lot. Why can’t we just go back in the closet?

tomripley

Joe:

Sorry, didn't see your post there. Yes, Fodor's always has included Gay Travel Tips before - now they have removed them. That's why this seems to be such a calculated act.

Thanks for the post!

Tom

grrr

<Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome?>

Cologne, Germany.

StCirq

I guess I don't get this, either. Gays want to be treated like everyone else (and they should be), but they require special travel information...isn't that akin to some kind of disability?

And I think the leap from lack of information to "anti-gay" is pretty huge.

I guess Fodors isn't the right guidebook for you. Considering the number of different guidebooks available and everyone's varying travel requirements, that happens to all of us. Shrug.

tomripley

Janis J:

Yes, I did cancel my Fodor’s account a while ago because I got disgusted with people who just wanted to pick fights with other posters and not talk about the realities of travel. Well Janis, you’ve shown me how wonderful the habitual Fodor’s posters can be.

I’d decided to stick with the books instead, but even those have now sadly degenerated. If you don’t believe me, check out the new London guide and compare it to one from five years ago.

The worst travel writing restricts itself to compliments: “beautiful white sand beaches” and the like. Responsible writers point out problems with destinations, guide books, and the act of traveling itself. It has been my experience that, whenever anything unflattering about any destination is written on this website, people viciously pounce on it. That is why I no longer visit the Talk section.

I did want to make this post however because I know that the Fodor’s editors (particularly Doug Stallings – good guy) visit these chatrooms. If he knows his readers are displeased, he may be instrumental in changing their policy back to what it was. This is a business after all.

PalenQ

Hmm…I was expecting the bigoted backlash, but not quite so quickly.

bigoted = if you do not agree with tomripley like in Ripley, Believe Me or Not

Long-time Fodorite first ever post? Something is rotten in Denmark and i'm getting a good whiff of it over here

Again valid points but terrible throwing around terms like bigoted and Fodor's is anti-gay.

tomripley

Thanks grrr! I’ll look into it.

StCirq - you should really read the posts and not just the headline if you want to participate in the discussion. Yawn.

tomripley

If my choice of the “anti-gay” headline were wrong (which it isn’t) then why has this post generated such a flurry of activity in the brief time it has been up? I doubt if I would have gotten the same response to a post entitled: “Fodor’s new guides make me feel blue.”

PalenQ

Tom - how do you cancel your Fodor's account? What account?

It seems that tomripley could well be a fake name of someone who may actually be on the Fodor's guides staff and is airing sour grapes here - just a hunch.

something does not pass the smell test of tomripley even though again he/she seems to have very valid complaints

janisj

the evasive MR Ripley: You did not address my point that the VERY first recommendation in Fodor's on-line guide to Paris is a Lesbian club??

Or this about Cafe Cox >>Café Cox is a prime gay pickup joint. Behind the smoked-glass windows men line the walls and appraise the talent.<< Hardly seems "conservative" to me . . . . . .

Proenza_Preschooler

You don't actually USE a Fodor's Travel Guide, do you? Oh, you silly boy.

Even though I have been posting here for over 8 years and have been quoted in multiple Fodor's guides, I never use them.

I get all my info. on travel from specific Fodorites right here.

If I am looking for a gay venue, I usually post a thread here to find info. I would never rely on some out-of-date guide (so many aren't even updated, just reprinted from year to year).

Time Out, as mentioned above, is a good source of gay info. on a particular city.

Thingorjus,
Patricia Highsmith Fan