<i> Monterosso has one of the nicest beaches in Italy </i>

Huh? It's the nicest beach in the Cinque Terre, for sure.

Well yeh I was paraphrasing some rating for Monterosso beach I saw once that did call it one of Italy's best but yes I agree with you - best in Cinque Terre -others are rocky I think - and pretty small as beaches go - but nevertheless a nice beach in a place where there are other touristic things to do besides beaching it.

<i> ... toplessness has disappeared from French beaches and assume Italy and Spain too ...</i>

In general, near-nudity of all kinds has pretty much disappeared in Italy. When I first moved here, the cover of L'Espresso, a serious news magazine, almost always had a nearly-naked woman on the cover. All of the game shows and variety shows on TV had several very scantily clad assistants who pretended to be smitten by an ugly aging host in a suit. All of that is gone. The hosts are less formally dressed, and the assistants are more ... dressed.

I like to think it's because women are now perceived to have value other than as sex kittens.

There are still a few small nude beaches near where I live, but the residents in the vicinity complain about them constantly. (This has always been the case.) I never see topless women on the beaches, although I do see women who have removed their tops but are lying face down. I don't know if they have some clever way of putting the top back on while prone. There are still bikinis around, and lots of 2-piece suits that are not exactly bikinis, but I also see an increasing number of women who wear little bathing shorts and tank-top-type bathing tops.

It's like France then - when I first started staying in France to watch my young so we went to the municipal piscine a lot and even teen-age girls were all topless- now none are and would not even think of it they say. And at the seaside young and old woman were nearly all topless - none now I hear -funny when my kid's mama and her friend came to Michigan and hit the beach on Lake Michigan they took off their tops -I had to tell them they could be arrested.

How things change and oddly for some reason towards modesty and not away from it as have so many other sexual moralities. I do think phone cameras and Internet postings have something to do with it.

So OP does not have to be worried about teen boys being corrupted!

We were in Rome with 2 teens: 15 and 16 over Christmas last year. They loved the Vatican museum and a day trip to the country....hated coliseum lines and a lot of walking. Favorite was a trip to Siena when we rented a car and didn't go into any big tourist sights.

This Christmas we are going to Spain and I think there is going to be a ton for them...The Alhambra! Monkey's in Gibraltar and they may force us to go to Morocco because they want another country on their list... but I think it would be a mess!

Soooo....I think either would be excellent!

Oh and congratulations for having kids that would research!! We tried to get ours to but they never did!

Toplessness was a gift for oncologists
maybe people are now less stupid than 50 years ago

Tough place to end up -

Ask the boys to discuss their research and choices amongst themselves and see if they can come up with an agreement. If they can't let them know you will have to decide but that it won't be because you are picking one of their choices at the expense of the other but on what you think is best for everyone and based on what each of them indicated they were hoping to enjoy on the vacation.

Actually, now you have to go to Times Square in New York to see topless.

No, you just have to go canoeing on the Dordogne.

The beaches in Spain are much better for kids, with lots of space to roam and have fun. There are loads of great water-parks here too. It's also more cost-effective with children, as Italy can get a little pricey. Restaurants are not cheap, especially in the tourist hot-spots. Malaga is an amazing place to visit at that time of year and really has everything you could wish for.

>>No, you just have to go canoeing on the Dordogne.<<

I am reserving my canoe now.

Beware of those piranhas infesting the Dordogne! But seriously a neat thing to do anywhere - not sure much of that in Italy or Spain however.

After travelling to Europe with two teenaged girls for a month once and a teenaged boy another time, I definitely vote for Italy. I think the suggestion of the overnight train to Venice then Rome and Florence is a great idea. We did that and it was wonderful. Even just 1 day in Venice is ok amd more in the others as they have so much to see. Fun to get up early in the morning (even with teenagers) and see how the place gets it's mail, deliveries, garbage removed,etc. All on the canals. definitely would not waste time on beache- you can do that anywhere.
Have fun plannnng! Be carefu, two of mine fell in love with a Europe and ending up each living their for a year

I think the suggestion of the overnight train to Venice then Rome and Florence is a great idea>

Yes the overnight train could be an experience they would never forget:

https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/...nightjet.shtml

Venice and gondolas!

Venice even has a nice Lido or beach - short enough boat ride from San Marco - in summer it will be hopping like any popular Italian beach:

https://www.google.com/search?q=veni...w=1745&bih=863