cherrybomb

I am going against the grain here, but I would skip London and Amsterdam, as said prior it is the least "exotic" of your short list. You said your husband is hot for Spain and you for Italy - why not concentrate on those two places for your first trip? You could spend five days in each, rent an apartment and get a good lay of each city and add in some day trips. While Madrid is filled with museums, there is more to it than just spending days at the museums. Late night tapas-crawls with amazing and very inexpensive food and soaking up the energy of the city is a worthwhile experience and certainly not something that would be as fun once you are hunkered down with kids. You could do some easy day trips as well. From there you could go to Rome where you surrounded with the Colosseum, Roman Forum and again, more food and wine and urban energy.

By doing the two places each of you are most intrigued by, you can decide where to go explore more of the next trip around. You will also get your slow travel experience.

Just a thought.

GuyC

If you want to be able to say you've visited London, Paris, Rome, etc. by all means exhaust yourself with an expensive 11-day major city itinerary that once it's over will be a vague blur. Overnight trains will further sap your mental and physical resources as not much sleep can be gotten on them. How about visiting one big city, say, Paris or Vienna or Berlin and spending the rest of the time driving backroads visiting small villages? Devote 4 ord 5 full days to Paris and spend the next 6 or 7 in the countryside seeing France's wine regions such the Champagne country, the Alsace wine road, Burgundy, et.. For the driving portion you could opt to forgo a set itinerary, stopping at charming inns as the spirit moves. Forget the train; it's full of tourists and the car provides ultimate flexibility and probably will be cheaper. There are a lot more roads in France than railroad tracks. You could do the same thing from Florence, Vienna, Munich or Berlin. Get off the beaten track where it's cheaper, more relaxed and more authentic.

PalenQ

Most first-time travelers IMO should avail themselves of the fantastic train system - with trains blowing hourly at speeds of up to nearly 200 mph between zillions of cities, large and small. Just about any place a tourist wants to go is accessible by rail.

If going mainly to large cities like Amsterdam, Paris, etc cars are a liability once there - wide areas of city centers are off-limits to private vehicles - parking is hard to find a times and then like in Amsterdam costs about $30/day i think - many city hotels do not have parking - then take the train right to the city center and use the superb city transit systems to get around - and European cities are often very walkable

Cars are great for exploring rural areas without good rail service but most first-time travelers want to go to the mega tourist cities they've been dreaming about going to all their lives - so this is best done IMO by train - and you do see the countryside from the train in between the big cities.

And if just using the car to say drive between Paris and Amsterdam then it can be fatiguing as well. Do like many Europeans do if going to big cities and take the train IMO. For loads of great info on planning a European rail trip i always spotlight these info-laden sites - www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free European Planning & Rail Guide as it has a chapter on each country by train - suggested itineraries, etc.

Sassafrass

Really like both the suggestions of Cherrybomb and GuyC, and for a first trip to Europe, would give them serious, strong consideration. May is such a perfect time for the warmer climates. Both Madrid (or Barcelona) and Rome offer enough of everything for you to have a fantastic, exciting trip, and each of you get what you want most. I think you would both feel a sense of deep satisfaction from such a trip.

Andrew

tds0212, no, I wouldn't skip Amsterdam, at least not based on my opinions. You may love it or at least like it. I guess what I was more trying to do is bring you down to earth to the fact that you may not love EVERY place you visit in Europe. Sometimes it's hard to keep perspective when reading all these glowing reviews of places you might visit that the writer might have entirely different tastes from yours. That's one of the biggest challenges I've had in trying to pick places to visit on my trips to Europe: who do you trust when getting recommendations for a place?

I don't regret having visited Amsterdam even though I didn't love the place (and I still may go back, though it's not at the top of my list of course). I've met more than one person who didn't care for Paris at all, even though it's one of my favorite cities in Europe. We all have different tastes, and you will find yours after your trip to Europe! And Amsterdam is the kind of place you sort of need to visit just to see what it's like.

chadnycity

Amsterdam is a lovely city and as you surmised, it is more relaxed. The City is very pretty and from while I haven't been there in years, from what I've heard it is slowly becoming a bit less liberal. For example, I'd love to be corrected on this point, but I read that while it is still legal to enjoy marijuana, it's no longer permissible to serve alcohol at the same venue. Now some people might not think this is a huge deal, particularly if you don't enjoy marijuana, but others who may be traveling in a group, some of whom want to drink, others who prefer to smoke, ... you get the picture. Anyway, the question remains how far to the right Amsterdam will move and how long it will take?

I can see flying into Amsterdam and then flying to Paris, but I strongly recommend taking Eurostar to London. It's more convenient in EVERY way, including the amount of time that it will take to get to where you're staying in London. As for substituting Amsterdam with Rome, a couple of points.
Rome deserves more than 3 days as it is a massive city with a lot to see. It is also much less convenient than Amsterdam.
And, also, Rome, as opposed to Amsterdam, is really better seen as part of a longer trip that includes other parts of Italy.

tds0212

I don't know y, but I am extreamley intimidated by the whole train thing....I'm hoping when I get a few travel books it will ease my mind. Right now I am just thinking how in the heck am I going to know where to go, how to get there, which train is going where...should i fly, should i ride...ah! I know I will have it all figured out by the time the trip comes but right now im like WHOAH!

sap

tds0212, you are so sweet & funny that it's a joy for everyone to help you figure this out. I'm telling you, though, you'll be like WHOAH until it happens. And then you'll be like WHOAH, I totally did that. Seriously, the whole WHOAH thing is definitely the point of travel. You're on board now -- have a ball!

chadnycity

here is chunnel (Eurostar b/t Paris and London)

http://www.raileurope.com/train-faq/...6318&WT.srch=1

I understand your trepidation, but it'll be easier if you plot out your major train rides ahead of time and think about the city-trains (Tube and Metro) when you're in Paris or London. Train stations usually do a good job of directing you and there's always someone to ask for help. And you're right, the guidebooks will help you. I still think Rick Steves and Frommers are the best guidebooks. I'd recommend buying guidebooks from half.com. That's where I get all of my books.

Wekiva

Since it seems you're sticking to large cities that aren't all that far apart the trains will be pretty simple. Surviving the flight to your first city will be much more taxing. I doubt you'll have to switch trains. An example is Amsterdam to Paris...raileurope.com says there are the following non stop trains:
7:16am
8:16am
10:16am
1:16pm
3:16pm
4:16pm
6:16pm
7:16pm

...and that they all take about 3hr 19minutes. I believe that will be a lot easier, roomier and less taxing than flying.

We LOVED the trains and can't wait to ride them again next summer with our children. They're into trains right now and will be in heaven.

rs899

tds-

Please don't be put off by the trains- they are one of the major (positive) differences between here and there. On my first "grand tour" exposure in the 70s we got a Eurailpass and spent six weeks on the trains, probably taking night trains a third of the time. It has gotten so much easier figuring out train schedules with the internet than back then when we only had published posted schedules to deal with.

Anyway, spend some time here as mentioned before:

http://www.seat61.com/Europe.htm

For the major cities you are considering, with only 2 people, you do not need or want a car. You will also spend much much more time going city center to city center with planes and probably spend more money as well (unless you use the budget carriers, maybe)

jamikins

Trains are soooo easy to use please dont be intimidated. You show up at the railstation, find your platform using a huge screen (or ask the info place) and then head to the platform a few minutes before the train is due, get on and relax until you get off in the next city! A breeze. The Eurostar is fantastic between London and Paris. You do have to go through securty similar to an airport but it takes mins and then you just sit back and wait to board!

rs899

Eurostar is the exception for security ( due to the tunnel). The vast majority are just show up at the station 15 minutes ahead , find your train at the track posted on the board, hop on. Piece of cake.

Michel_Paris

By the time you do the math of getting to airport, security, flight, getting into next city...the train is almost as fast. Don;t worry about the trains, it's quite organized and easy to figure out.

Mimar

Ditto on the trains. Riding the trains is one of my favorite parts of traveling in Europe. You sit in spacious comfy seats and the scenery flows by. You peek into backyards in city suburbs, catch a snapshot of life in small villages, get reminded how much of Europe is not city but farmland, fields and woods.

Buying tickets etc is not difficult. The Seat61 site will help. Also check out Rick Steves' guidebooks if available to you. And there are some books about riding the trains in Europe. If you do the Amsterdam/Paris/London itinerary, you can buy your tickets ahead of time, have reserved seats, and just need to show up.

PeaceOut

I'm sorry I have not read all the posts. Just wanted to say we did a two week trip once, visiting London- Paris- Amsterdam. It was a great mix of different cultures to visit. We are a family of four (one late teen and one early twentys) and we all really enjoyed Amsterdam. The people there are so helpful and friendly, the town is so incredibly charming, clean, and felt very safe. Do not be put off by the pot availability. It did not concern us, even with teens in tow.

I did wish for more than 3 nights in Paris, though. If I were to choose just two of those cities in two weeks, I would recommend Paris and Amsterdam. Just my personal preference.

I have detailed trip reports from each of the three cities, if you need them.

rs899

IMO London makes some sense as a starting point as it's good for getting one's bearings in a strange land with a familiar language. Fares to London are generally cheap and museums are free (tip of the hat to our taxpaying Brits). But, for me its just not exotic enough, and just doesn't have the charm of Paris or Rome. Amsterdam seems an interesting place, but doesn't need too much time.

We all have our opinions- when you get back you will have yours, tds

Wekiva

One item to note on flights that include London and open jaw tickets...flying into London is a lot cheaper than flying out of London. The taxes for flying out of London are really high. On our 2011 trip I found the taxes to be $100 less per person when we flew into London and out of Rome vs the other way around.

PalenQ

raileurope.com's train schedules only show the trains that RE can book and thus not nearly all the zillion of trains in Europe - on mainline connections like Paris to Amsterdam they usually show them all but not always - some glitches - sometimes even showing only a few for some reason

The best schedule site for all European trains i have seen in the www.bahn.de - or German Rail site - easiest to use and always seems to show all trains - even commuter trains in places like London.

Andrew

Right, I always refer to the Germain rail site for checking the schedules. I've used it for most of my Europe trips as reference - and I've never even been to Germany!!

Yeah, the trains especially in Amsterdam, Paris, and London should be extremely easy. Love, love, love using the trains in Europe. Much less stressful than flying, usually. I can't even imagine driving in any of those cities!