jsmith

And politicians, basingstoke2, have a way of ignoring the liabilities they promise. Lest I be reminded that we are spending billions (trillions?, quadrillions?) on a war, it is true for cities, towns, counties, states and countries. The bill will come due be it San Diego (oh, that one did come due), California, US, UK or France.

bobludlow

danon: this WHO survey (and in the end it is just one survey) didn't said that the people in the other countries were unhappy - just that the Americans were the happiest and most satisfied.

robjame: you asked "if you didn't use a "bunch" of matrices how would you evaluate?"

My point was that the particular weighting that WHO chose to put on the survey wouldn't have been my choice. Automobiles have lots of attributes too - do you think it is strange that different people prefer different cars? Or should we all choose the car that you prefer because that's the obvious best choice?

ira

> I think it makes more sense to look at total health care expenditures (both per person and as a share of national income), including both public and private spending. An Excel spreadsheet with those numbers is available herelt;

Thanks for the data, J.

Hi SM,

>Ira - Society is subsidizing your Medicare, that is why it appears less expensive than your private coverage.<

Sonderbar!! I hadn't thought of that.

My point, dear colleague, is that my employer and I paid 17% of my income for medical care. Is that higher or lower than we would have paid for equivalent coverage in France?

>Do you believe that we could magically transition to a massive single-payor socialized system without giving that up? <

Are you sure that we wouldn't, Bob?

>Each individual receiving Medicare is supported by multiple workers that are ineligible.<

Hey SM, that's the whole point of insurance. The risk is spread among a large population.

As noted above, I pay for other people's kids to go to school. They grow up to pay for my Social Security, Medicare, Pension (whether public or private), etc.

Also, those other workers aren't "ineligible"; they are "not yet eligible".

ira

The word "Socialist" and the phrase "socialized medicine" are being thrown around a lot.

Anyone care to define these terms?

Neil_Oz

"But if you are not a patient, how can you express your satisfaction?????"

- The "key informants" used in the survey mentioned but not cited by bobludlow were not even patients - they were toilers in the health sectors of the countries concerned. Put another way, they were the producers, not the consumers. That's how I read it, anyway. For those interested it can be found at www.who.int/healthinfo/paper22.pdf. Be warned though that it's eye-glazing stuff and a statistician's wet dream.

For myself, I'm not sure I'd want to be part of a system in which the people insuring me apparently spend so much of their time and money trying to avoid paying the bill, assuming they haven't dodged insuring me in the first place.

Most Australians are strong supporters of our universal insurance and subsidised medicines schemes. They'd be surprised to find themselves described as "socialists", but I've noticed that the term is often applied rather liberally in the United States.

Padraig

In American public discourse "socialist" means something like "liberal", only worse. In other words, any political belief that presumes that the state has any more purpose than defence.

If you want to meet real socialists, come to Europe. We still have some.

ira

>any political belief that presumes that the state has any more purpose than defence.<

And why should I accept that the purpose of the State is defense?

We have the right to keep and bear arms; why do we need to pay taxes to a bunch of politicians to maintain a military force?

Damn bunch of socialist liberals.

ira

or is that liberal socialists?

kenderina

We even have self-called liberals, Padraig (but no one believes them..they are just conservatives)

robjame

A lot of American socialists I guess.
And to answer smueller...

“A majority of Americans [64%] say the federal government should guarantee health insurance to every American, especially children, and are willing to pay higher taxes to do it, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News Poll” March 2007

http://tinyurl.com/37lwnw

danon

robjame,
everyone knows that New York Times, CBS,NBC, ABC ... are members of the liberal ( 'socialist&quot media.
The only information to be believed comes from the ... fair and balanced .. and radio bla bla bla

jody

danon, I just love satire and irony!

basingstoke2

jsmith- Can't argue your point about politicians and bills coming due.

ElaineF

May I ask a question, please excuse me if it has been already answered or if I am confused about which country has which type of coverage......

If a national health care system is superior (in some peoples eyes) than why do others opt to purchase private insurance along with their national insurance coverage, i.e. UK citizens?

sjj

National health programs often offer limited coverage, for example poor dental insurance and shared rather than private rooms in hospitals. People in countries with programs like this usually take out extra insurance, just as Americans on Medicare often buy supplementary insurance if they don't have retiree benefits from their employer.

esd

I would rather be right here in America, thank you!

My husbands family live in Italy and we've visited there often and I know the medical history/experiences of all his family. Have they received some good care?..of course. Have they not? Yes to that, too.

Years ago I went with a niece to a local doctors office. We walked into a large, crowded waiting room. She asked who was before her and that was who she was to keep track of so as to know when it was her turn. While waiting a girl came in crying..she'd stepped on a hypodermic needle in the sand at a nearby beach. Everyone was very sympathetic and she was told by all that she could be next. We never saw any personnel..as one came out from seeing the doctor, another went in.

Different, but it worked. HOWEVER, anyone with any money and/or a serious illness goes through their private system if possible and not the free-for-everyone government plan.

I want to point out too that when my husband had cancer treatments a few years ago (he's been fine since) he went to Atlanta...as did a number of Europeans that we met while there. I wonder if that scenario is ever reversed..I doubt it.

Would I be 'afraid' to be treated over there if I were there and had to be? Of course not! Would I 'rather' be there than here and sick? No way!

danon

National health care coverage does not include everything related to health care.
Private insurance may cover drugs outside the hospital, dental care, private hospital room , glasses, physiotherapy. braces, and similar
Often the cost of this additional private insurance is shared by the employer and the employee.

ElaineF

just as i suspected sjj. I wonder if any
of the brits or any other non usa-national (who praise their national health scheme) on the board elect to have private insurance?

...and why would they pick to have private insurance? do they feel more comfortable with the 'extra'...Another question...doesnt the private only allow you to shorter wait times and to see certain doctors that allow for private insurance?

ElaineF

thanks danon

robjame

Let me guess esd - you are not one of the 40+ million with no health insurance.

Elaine - I think you may have misunderstood what sjj told you.
I have supplemental insurance in Canada. It does not give me quicker service. It gives me an opportunity for a double room instead of a ward (4 person) room in hospital.
The major reason I have it is for the 5 months a year that I spend in the US. The extra cost if I should fall ill or have an accident there would bankrupt me as my Health Insurance only reimburses me outside of the Province for the amount of the equivalent cost in Ontario. It would provide air ambulance home etc.
These services are deemed to be outside the basic coverage.

Basic coverage is guaranteed for every citizen (and sometimes provided even for non-citizens)