Interesting point about the flour having a lot to do with the finished product. You can't bake a decent Southern biscuit unless you're using Martha White flour, which is a soft winter wheat. And a good loaf of white, to me, always starts with King Arthur Flour from Vermont.

I think we can get American breads, even from good grocery store bakeries (not all are good) that are close to European breads. What we can't seem to duplicate is those wonderful German hard rolls. I've tried our local European bakery and they said can't get people to buy them here (no shelf life, too hard, etc.). They do make one hard roll, but you have to buy it fresh or it's good only for stuffing that Thanksgiving turkey. What we forget is that Europeans go to the bakery every morning for their fresh bread and don't keep it around more than a day. My brother-in-law recently moved from Germany to the US and says the thing he misses most is his morning trip to the bakery two blocks away. We just don't live that way.

Ira, that's for a whole loaf, don't know the weight. You buy either a whole or a half here. What baker's seem to make most money on here is pastries, tarts and chocolates. By the way, they are all open on Sunday and holidays too, even on Christmas day (when all of Belgium seems to pick up their brioche to go with the fois gras).
Say hi to Georgia for me!

Thanks to those who cut me some slack.

By "European", I referred to the general category of bread-type products I have experienced in England, France, Germany, Austria, Czech & Slovak Republics, & Benelux. I haven't been elsewhere in Europe.

Yes, I live in a small (40,000) town 45 miles from a larger town (110,000) in the midwest. In 2002 a Panera bread franchise came to town; that's as close to an artisan baker as one can come on our side of the state. Life's like that west of the Hudson. My query didn't anticipate driving to NYC for a good loaf.

What is Hungarian flour, and where to buy? When we bake, we use King Arthur, maybe add gluten, but it's still not even close. I suspect it's both the flour and the yeast, for we've experimented with variables such as heat, time (both rising & baking).

tomboy, since you are baking your own, here's a couple of things I find help:

Slow rise in the fridge overnight (convienient, too!)

Steam in oven, esp. at beginning of bake; either put a pan of hot water in oven while preheating, or throw a few tablespoons of water on bottom of oven every 3 minutes.

A well preheated pizza stone is good, too.

I have read that boulangeries in France are subsidized by the government due to political pressures associated with the significance of bread in French history ("let them eat cake", etc.). If this is true, it implies that, in France at least, you get more than what you pay for (since "the state" is paying for part). Good bread does exist in the US, but it costs more than the run-of-the-mill loaves that are so common in the grocery stores.

Another tip is to add a few ice cubes to the shallow pan of boiling water you place in the bottom of the oven. The ice will melt slowly and continue to steam the bread for a longer period of time, and you don't have to keep opening the oven to add the water.

Yet, nothing even comes close to Dansk wienerbrod (Danish pastry)!

From "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee.

"Hard wheats are preferred for bread making and constitute about 75 per cent of the American crop. [In contrast]Durham...is too hard for bread dough, which must have some give to it.... Soft wheats...develop a weak gluten, and are made into cake flour. "

"All purpose or household flour is a blend of hard and soft flours meant for use in a variety of foods. Because it is a hybrid, it seldom gives the same results as commercially baked breads or cakes which are made with specialized flours. "[which might explain Tomboy's problem with 'King Arthur' flour which I assume is an all-purpose flour.] "Recent technical advances in particle separation have made it possible to extract a hard-flour fraction from soft-wheat grains and vice versa, thusfreeing the production of flour to some extent from dependence on the qualities of the particular crop."

The chapter continues for some 20 pages, going into enough detail to convince me that bread analysis is anything but simple.

Message to rfb: suggesting we "cut tomboy some slack" is kind of an odd statement in my opinion. I don't see any attempt from bobthenavigator or myself to get on any soapbox as you suggest. Is this not a forum for discussion? Are you saying the only reason anybody should post is to wholeheartedly agree with everything? Neither of us were harsh. We both simply asked a question, just like tomboy did. I'll never understand why people come to a discussion board and get upset if anyone dares to give an opposing view to a statement. Tomboy asked about European bread. We both (and others as well) asked which type of European bread he's talking about. Isn't this part of a logical and simple but civilized discussion?

I hope Harold McGee meant Durum wheat and not Durham wheat. Durham (NC at least) was known for tobacco. I hope that doesn't get milled into flour. Then again, it is one way to get a tobacco fix in a non-smoking area.

A convection oven is better at making a crusty bread than a regular oven. Something about all the air swirling around.

Ncgrrl

My bad! Mr. McGee did indeed write, 'Durum' not 'Durham.' This is the wheat used in Semolina, ,and only accounts for 5 per cent of the crop, according to him.

I've been checking around and it seems Julia Child and others maintain that regular French household flour is made from SOFT wheat. They claim that a reasonable approximation of French flour is 3 parts American unbleached all-purpose flour to 1 part unbleached cake flour. So it seems the trick might be to lower the gluten content, not increase it.

I'll never take the 'staff of life' so much for granted again.

dln
>...You can't bake a decent Southern biscuit unless you're using Martha White flour,...<

Well, down heah in Georgia we go with Lily White for biscuits.

We agree on the King Arthur.

Hi Jackie,

Bagels are American? See http://www.bethlehembagels.com/history.html


Hi rfb,

The King Arthur Flour people make excellent bread flour, All Purpose flour and Whole Wheat flour, as well as a range of specialty flours.

No need to go to Hungary.

Got me on that one Ira. I'm eight years removed from Georgia now, and it was "Lily White" I was thinking of, not Martha! I stock up on it when we head down south to visit.

In Spain, my hostess bought fresh bread EVERY morning. There were no preservatives or additives. Just the basic ingredients.

Also, I have heard people who insist that New York pizza is the best say that it's in the water. Even "New York style" pizzerias can't replicate the authentic taste, because they don't have the same minerals in the water.

My vote is water and lack of preservatives.

Great topic for (American) Thanksgiving week!!

A further question for all my US friends - wouldn't corn bread be the only truly all-American bread??? (& other breads originated elsewhere and traveled to this continent with the pioneers and settlers??)

Corn bread certainly is American, especially when you start to talk about different regional ingredients that go into it! Now, THAT's a discussion!

Lionel Poilane, who was killed last year in a helpcopter crash, was known all over the world for his bread and bakery in Paris. A wood-fired oven was part of the process to produce this world reknowned loaf of bread. His daughter has taken over the business, on rue Cherche Midi.

and i thought this thread was going to be just another slice of euro vs. the dollar...