Jayne G

Our family is planning our first European vacation in June,2000. Our children are 7, 10 and 13. My daughter and I are spending 2 weeks with a group touring England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. My husband and sons will meet us in London to spend another two weeks on our own. What countries/cities are recommended for families? What is the best way to travel--rail or air? How much area do you think we can comfortably cover? Can you recommend any web sites that can give us some guidance? Thank you for any help you can offer.

Rex

Jayne, <BR> <BR>I am never bashful about answering questions like yours, and others will chime in too, no doubt. But for the sake of the thread, could you provide some more information? <BR> <BR>What age is the daughter (the one that has to be prepared to ttavel for FOUR weeks)? The first day or so she is with your husband and sons, it will be terrific, then a few conflicts will erupt, so it would be good to have some active (outdoors?) plans for those days 15-17. <BR> <BR>Will the two of you spend much time in London with the group? This will influence how much you want to let the "other three" see London before moving on to something else. <BR> <BR>Are you intent on leaving the British Isles (as a fivesome?) or conversely, intent on staying? or wide open? In general, my recommendation is car (plus or minus air - - if you're going to the continent). <BR> <BR>My wife and I did 17 days last summer (1998) with 11 teenagers in tow (ages 14-22), and our itinerary was 2 days London, fly to Milan (cheap), then 8 days Italy (included 5 nights in a villa), 4 days France (2 in Paris, flying up from Montpellier cheap), and finally 2 days Windsor. Flying really can be affordable, and we were able to get Paris-London essentially free (as the open jaw return) for London (STN)-Milan (Linate). <BR> <BR>And of course, last question, how much have you traveled together as a family (&gt; 4 days, for example). Your chief intra-family problems will be more or less the same you experience on a trip WITHIN the US. Most likely, you are putting a big chunk of your family's resources into this trip, but honestly, if you haven't traveled much, I would strongly urge you to plan SOMETHING for spring break, perhaps an ambitious car circle trip. It will help establish what is acceptable behavior in restaurants, museums, the hotel (5 of you plan to share one bathroom?)and of course, the car (what will we listen to while driving, for example). I have rented a lot of cars in Europe, and haven't gotten one with a CD in it yet, so there's no time like the present - - everybody pick out some family-compatible albums or CD's and get them recorded on cassettes if you don't already own them. <BR> <BR>I have tons of ideas on destinations depending on your desire to cross the channel or not. <BR> <BR>Feel free to write me directly. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>

Bob Brown

JP: I was struck by the four weeks of travel for some of you and your group. My wife and I run out of desire after about 18 days of constant European travel and are ready to come home. <BR> <BR>The questions asked by Rex are very appropriate and I think you should consider them carefully. He speaks with the voice of experience; one that I don't have in terms of travel with several people less than 19 years of age. <BR> <BR>Despite my limited experience in European family travel, I would throw in these questions: <BR>1. Would you consider such a trip if it was all within the USA? For example would you consider starting in NYC and then continuing to New England for two more weeks? <BR>2. Have you thought about laundry for the group? <BR>3. With an age range of 6 years, I doubt if the children will be interested in the same attractions, so how will you plot your daily strategy? <BR>3. Do any of the children really share your interest in what you will be seeing? (Even I get fed up with castles, museums, and cathedrals. I usually attend plays in London, concerts where I can find them, and, in major cities, an opera or ballet that appeals to me. And I always try to find some mountain scenery to inspire me.) <BR>4. Where will you be staying? Exclusively in hotel rooms? Have you considered an apartment so that you can stay in one place and make day trips in separate groups. <BR> <BR>For 5 people, I think the breakeven price between hotels and apartments would be quickly reached. Moreover, for much of the travel, a car will be more economical than taking trains. <BR> <BR>In conclusion let me tell a story on an acqaintenance of the family who provided us all with a good example of how not to do it. HE (!) decided that a fashionable trip to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons National Parks would do the family a big favor. It would foster their prestige within in the community and contribute to their educational experiences. It was his idea of the good, social climbing, life. They got to Yellowstone first after 4 days of cross country driving through Tennessee, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, and Wyoming. By that time the two daughters were bored stiff, totally disinterested, and did not give a rip about geysers, mud pots, waterfalls, and wildlife. All the whining and complaining finally got to the father. When one of the girls said she hated that dumb geyser and that she had really rather be at home talking to her friends at the local ice cream parlor, he totally flipped out. In a rage, he loaded everybody into the car and did not stop except for one night to sleep until he got home. So much for family togetherness. <BR>Now don't get me wrong, it can be done. <BR>This past summer my son, his wife, and two boys made a similar trip. As a treat for the boys, they spent nights enroute at motels with swimming pools and stopped early enough to enjoy the facility. Once in the parks, they planned each day so that each boy could earn his Junior Ranger certificates at Yellowstone and the Tetons. (Grand Dad offered a little cash incentive as well!!) Mom and Dad had to get involved so that the boys could complete the requirements. And, the older of the two boys has an interest in dinosaurs, so they located a site that was run by the University of Wyoming where they could actually help for a day on a dinosaur dig. In Yellowstone they went on a wild West cookout, riding in a stage coach. And they took a float trip on the Snake River. So there were many activities planned specifically for the children after several sessions of prior consultation. Dad had done his homework, and I think they had a successful trip. Good luck!!

Lori

Jayne, <BR>You have gotten some great advise so far. What I might add is that after you and your daughter (how old??) get through touring the British Isles she may be sick of travel (or so might you!!) Meeting up with the family will be fun but I think I'd look for apartment accommodations in your destination areas simply because you will need the extra room (either that or 2 hotels rooms which would give you 2 bathrooms, a definate plus!!).You can also look into renting a house/cottage and do day trips via car. Kids can all stand some "culture" but even adults get tired of museums and cathedrals, etc. as Bob mentioned. You will need to schedule things they can enjoy too. You might consider a few days at a coastal area and let them burn off some energy by the beach. I'm mostly familiar with England and France (and some Spain) and I think they'd enjoy the Eiffel Tower, perhaps boat rides on the Seine (and Thames), a trip to Warwick Castle in England, perhaps the Paris sewers - things like that. I would not try and see everything and I would limit my travel areas. Kids get bored real fast, even the best of kids. I know from my co-workers who have kids that frequently their kids would prefer to spend time with their own friends then their parents - it's an age thing. <BR>Also think about food -- again, exposing them to other foods and tastes is wonderful, but be prepared for an occasion stop at McDonald's or Burger King or the local pizza place. (Having an apartment/house is a great idea because you can keep snacks, etc. around and prepare some meals too - it's also fun shopping in local grocery stores and shops). <BR> <BR>Depending upon where you are going rail might be a better travel option then flying, but that's just a personal opinion. <BR> <BR>Give us some idea of what you (and kids) are interested in, and what countries you plan on seeing as a family unit and we can give better answers. I would plan on no more than 2 countries as moving around gets tiring too. You will have a lot of money invested in this trip so you want to think about many angles which you are already doing. <BR> <BR>

wes fowler

Jayne, <BR>You've gotten truly excellent advice. One point that I didn't see mentioned and that I consider awfully important is to get the youngsters (even the 7 year old) actively involved in the planning process. You've asked us where to go, what to see; have you asked them? If not, do so. If you get the "I don't know anything about Europe" response, tell them they've got six months to find out! Point them to guide books and picture books, particulary the Insight Guides which are written in a light easy to digest vein and have superb photos. You'll find a guide to every country in western Europe and most major cities.

anna

Jayne, don't be discouraged by some of the responses. I took three children to Europe last year for 23 days when they were just a couple years older than yours. In general, they had a ball. We spent 9 days in London and the rest of the time driving around Denmark in a rental car. I would suggest you consider Scandinavia if you are planning to leave the British Isles. One of the high points of our trip was the overnight ferry from Newcastle to Denmark. The kids LOVED it and our tiny cabin cost less than airfare plus anight's lodging in a hotel. In June the sun doesn't set til 11 PM or later in the Scandinavian countries (MUCH later further north in Norway) The kids got a big kick out of that. Scandinavians love children and most of them speak English very well so the language barrier is not a problem. The strain of coping with kids AND a foreign language AND foreign currency can get to you after several days. The train across Denmark from Esbjerg where the ferry landed to Copenhagen was not very expensive and from Copenhagen (or actually Helsingør, just outside of Copenhagen), Sweden is just a twenty minute ferry ride. Scandinavian HI hostels are generally clean, quiet, and they welcome families. They are also fairly inexpensive, as lodgings go, if you don't mind bunk beds, and they are great places to meet people from all over the world. They also usually have laundry facilities on site. Denmark has a lot of coastline and beaches, and your kids are the perfect ages for Legoland (and the hostel in Billund was my kids' favorite). They loved Tivoli in Copenhagen and still talk about it. I can't say much about Sweden except second-hand, but if you have any specific questions about Denmark, just e-mail me. Our nine days in London were spent in a vacant student apartment which was great because the kids had room to spread out and throw their stuff around, and we made our own breakfast of cereal, juice, and yogurt wevery morning and saved money. Also there was a washer/dryer in the apartment so we could get laundry done after the kids went to bed, and the oldest could stay up in the living room watching the World Cup game of the day without keeping the little ones awake. Their favorite things in London were the science museum, the wax museum, the Tower and Crown Jewels, the Tower Bridge (which we had to stick around and wait for them to raise one day), Covent Garden, the London Transport Museum, riding the Tube, Hampton Court Palace, especially the maze, Hambley's Toy Store, and my daughter loved the historical fashion exhibit in the Victoria and Albert. They weren't tremendously impressed by the Rosetta Stone and Elgin Marbles in the British Museum but now they are learning that stuff in school and get a big kick out of telling the class they've seen them close up. In June (except for very late June) the London kids will still be in school, so when you see large groups of kids trooping around the museums in ugly uniforms (even the public school kids), you can tell your kids how lucky they should feel to be out of school and on vacation. We certainly had a bit of whining here and there, but for the most part I was so proud of how adaptable my kids were and we still have such great memories. Be sure you keep a diary and make a copy for each of the kids when you get home. You will be so wiped by the end of the trip you won't remember half the stuff you did if you don't write it down. Read the book "Take Your Kids to Europe" and e-mail me if you need more specifics about London or Denmark. Don't try to cram too much in or you will regret it, and be sure to throw in a couple amusement parks or even just plain old parks for the kids to blow off steam.

anna

By the way, the Rick Steves Travels in Europe segment this Friday at 9 AM CST on the Travel Channel is about Denmark. Or just start taping it every morning at 9 AM and see which countries strike your fancy. <BR> <BR>

Russ

I agree with incorporating children into the planning. My 10-year old didn't decide much, clearly, but if they know in advance that they will be able to do certain things, they'll have a greater investment. <BR> <BR>I also agree with renting an apartment! We had a place for a week in southern Germany on our last trip with 2 bedrooms, full kitchen and bath, and only a few blocks to Lake Constance, for only about $40 per night. There were nearby towns of interest that we did daytrips to by train, but we spent a lot of relaxing time, too, just walking, biking, or sitting on the beach. We limited our excursions and played things by ear and by the weather, and I think this was key for us. A tight schedule just gets everyone uptight. If you're fortunate, you'll find a place to rent that is well-located (a nice semi-rural town near some bigger places AND near nature is great) and that has bikes and a washing machine already (we rented ours cheaply and washed out by hand, but some landlords provide a wash service if no machines are available.) The apartment thing also eliminates the hassle of, for every meal, having to choose where to eat out and then get there. With a local store and the apt. kitchen, restaurant meals only have to be taken when you want to rather than every meal. We mostly made soup or sandwiches and breakfast food at "home", then ate a meal out somewhere. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that an apartment doesn't remove your family completely from its normal habits, and it allows family members more choices. We had a blast without killing each other, but then, we also took the train most of the trip! <BR> <BR>Germany has many places where this kind of thing is common (Rhine and Mosel valleys, for example) but I imagine that Holland might be great too, and even closer to your starting point. Somewhere near Haarlem might be good -- close to Amsterdam and the beach at Zandvoort, with biking everywhere. <BR> <BR>Let me know if you want any specific recommendations for Germany, and I will pass on some websites and answer your questions.

steve

Get an apartment - 'self catering' they call it for a week - it will de-stress the vacation and give everyone some space. Also much cheaper. Try www.visitbritain.com

Jayne

Thanks to all of you for the great advice. I will elaborate on the information you have requested so that you can help me further. Fortunately, all of my children are seasoned ( and good) travelers. OUr most recent trip (this past summer) was to Seattle and BC Canada for 16 days. I have worked at a museum since they were little so they appreciate that environment, but they are kids and do enjoy the outdoors. I think the apartment suggestion is a great one. My daughter is 14 and we will be on an EF tour the 11 days prior to meeting up with the rest of the family. Our itinerary for the second part of our trip is totally open. Our son has a burning desire to see Paris so we want to work that in, at least for a few days. We have considered the Scandinvian region as well as Switzerland. I would appreciate your input. I don't like to fly so other modes of travel are favored. We plan to take a separate vacation to Italy in 2001 so we won't want to travel there this time. My husband and I do not want to feel rushed and stress the kids. We will be meeting in London. My daughter and I will be covering a lot of territory before we meet up with them, so I would like to spend one week concentrating on the British Isles and spend the second week in another country or two. What are some reasonable day trips from London? Can anyone give me the names of apartment type hotels/condos? Again, thank all of you for your great tips. I would like to take advantage of your experience and get all the information I can. <BR>PS Our family has done the Yellowstone/Teton trip and we all loved it!!

Lori

Jayne, Thanks for all the info, you will surely get a ton of help now!! My advice (amd it's just my opinion) would be to assume you and your daughter might be a little tired of "one or two nighters" from your tour so I'd look for an apartment in London and stay put for a week. There is so much to do/see a week will not do it justice anyway. Day trips abound out of London, i.e. Windsor Castle, Warwick Castle, Hampton Court, Greenwich just to name a few. The museums in London are super and the Tower of London seems to be a favorite for people with families. Try and get tickets to the Ceremony of The Keys too, it's done at 9:30 at night and is a fascinating tradition. You need to write in advance for tickets (free) - there is always info on this Forum about that, just run a search but if you can't find the address I can get it for you. As for apartments, just do a search on "apartments London" and you will see many listed. The Orion chain also has several in London. Even if the kids are great travelers you will need to schedule some "down time" I would think so that everyone is not stressed to death. The London parks are great, have a picnic in Hyde Park or Regents Park, rent a row boat and just enjoy! <BR> <BR>As for another city/country, I'd opt for Paris since your son wants to seeit anyway. Again there is so much to do and see that a week is not enough!! Day trips to Versailles, Chartres, the Loire Valley are all options and easily done as well. Paris is loaded with sights, you can't go wrong there. I'd skip Scandanavia on this trip, it would be trying to do too much I think and if you are not keen on flying anyway. You can take the Eurostar train from London to Paris and the kids should enjoy that too. It's fast and convenient. You might want to consider an apartment in Paris too, just to have more room. Again, Orion and Citidines have web sights, with floor plans. I am sure you will get lots of info from others too.

anna

We found our London apartment in a booklet we got for free from the BTA. It's called City Apartments. Tons of letting agents, many with websites and e-mail adresses. We rented from Acorn rentals, but I don't remember the e-mail address or website name. It's not too soon to start thinking about booking something. A couple of the places we looked at that could accommodate a family of five were booked six months in advance. There was also a booklet of vacant university apartments and dormitories but I don't remember the title. Also from the BTA. The Eurostar was running a "Kids Free" promotion last summer. Wouldn't it be nice if they did it again this summer? Found that info on Frommer's (sorry Fodors) website.