My original 3 for 3 itinerary has changed substantially from my original post - thus, the new thread. Although I still have an action-packed schedule, the destinations have changed to accommodate my kids (in response to Lexma's advice).

The thread on "too much" was quite helpful. In particular, I appreciated the points made about the need for context. So, here's the context for my trip:

- My kids are 11 and 14 and this is our first trip abroad (together).
- It is highly unlikely that we'll make more than one other trip abroad before my oldest child leaves home (in 3 short years).
- In planning this trip, I've already decided that our second trip (if we're lucky enough to take it) should be a 2-week stay in Italy (with a visit to the south of France).
- I'm not confident enough that I'll take that 2nd trip to drop Venice from this one.
- I want to build in at least one overnight train (if we are in the 50% who LIKE it, we could add another overnight in one or two places (Venice-Geneve, Interlaken-Paris).
- I'd be more willing/able to add another day (or two)- probably to London and/or Paris - than to drop a destination.

I'd appreciate feedback on the general order, distribution of days, "must sees" in destinations, train tips, applause from Janis (just kidding), suggestions about things to skip, etc.

Ok, here goes...um, feeling like I used to feel in art school when we had to hang our self-portraits and wait for the (usually scathing) response...

day 1: arrive (am) London (3nts)
day 2: London
day 3: London
day 4: London (via Paris) to Koblenz (cruise?) to Bacharach/St. Goar(3+5+2) (3nts)
day 5: Bacharach/St. Goar: cruise, Marksburg Castle
day 6: Bacharach/St. Goar
day 7: Bacharach/St. Goar to Bingen (1hr cruise) to Munich (5hrs) (2nts)
day 8 Munich
day 9: Munich/Dauchau (overnight train to Venice)
day 10: Venice (2nts)
day 11: Venice
day12: Venice to Luzern (7hrs) (2nts)
day 13: Luzern: transport museum, glacier gardens
day 14: Luzern to Lauterbrunnen (2hrs) (2nts) Trummelbach Falls
day 15 Lauterbrunnen: Schilthorn or JungFraujach, Gimmelwald
day 16 Lauterbrunnen to Montreux (Golden Pass) (3hrs?) (2nts) Chateau de Chillon
day 17: Montreux: chocolate train (Guyeres, Broc)
day 18: Montreux to Paris (5hrs) (4nts)
day 19: Paris/Versailles
day 20: Paris
day 21: Paris
day 22: Paris to London (3hrs) to Baltimore?

Thanks for being gentle.

ps. I especially want to thank Russ for the many detailed suggestions (offered to me and to others) about the Rhine area.

On day 22, I would advise against going from Paris back to London in order to get a flight to Baltimore. I would suggest an open-jaw ticket Baltimore-London and Paris-Baltimore.

Beyond that, if you could conveniently arrange an open-jaw flight taking you home from Venice, you could travel London-Paris-Germany-Switzerland-Venice and save a good deal of backtracking.

In Switzerland, instead of staying in three different cities for two nights each, you might stay somewhere like Interlaken from which you would have easy day trips to Luzern, Lauterbrunnen, Jungfraujoch, etc. The point would be to avoid some packing up and moving in and out of hotels. Then you could go on to Western Switzerland (Montreux).

Looks pretty good, m.

I don't think I'd try to squeeze in a river cruise on the day you're arriving on the Rhine from London (surface transp., right?) as it's a long day already.

We very much enjoyed our apartment in St. Goar this past summer (very reasonable, roomy, private, friendly owner who speaks good English, great view of Rhine and castle on opposite side (Rheinblick apt.):

http://www.loreleytal.com/st.goar/fe...tz/english.htm

The owners met us at the station and walked us the 1.5 blocks to their building.

I agree in concept with the "stay put" advice from Thomas but would just say that Lauterbrunnen is a wonderful place to stay and preferrable in many ways to Interlaken, IMO. I'd suggest going up early to Schilthorn if possible and enjoying the "James Bond" breakfast in the revolving restaurant - a little expensive but the food is excellent and plentiful, and quite reasonable when you consider you're surrounded by perhaps the world's most amazing scenery in one of the world's most expensive countries (discounts on the early morning departures from Lauterbrunnen, big discount if you have a Swiss Pass.) It's unforgettable up there!

mberry:

I would drop the chocolate train to Broc on day 17. You will have seen a large part of the landscape this train runs through on the golden pass run the day before.

The factory tour at Broc is nothing more than a video presentation and an extended trip across the factory shop. Not really worth the while in my opinion.

Considering the large amount of time you will be spending on trains, a leisurly alternative on day 17 would be a paddle-wheel steamer cruise on lake Geneva, possibly with the visit to Chillon on this day rather than on day 16: the approach to the castle is far more attractive from the lake. (I have spent many vacation weeks in the area as a child, so if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask).

Enjoy your trip

Phil.

As you mentioned me by name, I feel I ought to weigh in on your revised schedule, but as I haven't visited Switzerland/Germany for years, and only some of the places you're going to, I can't offer much help re timing in general.

But I'll offer what I can. On your Shilthorn/Jungfraujoch/Gimmelwald day, if your group is at all interested in hiking, try to fit a short one in. There are tons of short (and longer) hikes in the area, either below the Shilthorn/Jungfraujoch or in the valley across from it. The Tourist Information office in Grindelwald had great maps of day hikes; as I recall, they include some where you can ride a chair lift up & hike down. You may end up planning this day after seeing what your weather is like - nothing like going up a mountain only to have it be fogged in.

Especially for your London and Paris days (ignore me if I've said this already), get a guidebook with good pictures (Eyewitness guides are good), preferably from your local library, and have you and your kids page through to see what there is, and what they'd like to spend time on. That way you can come up with that "must-see" list for those locations. (My personal must-see in London, though not everyone's, was the Rosetta Stone.)

Make sure, in Paris, to include at least one stop at a crepe stand - they're all over, and provide a cheap way to enjoy French food. Try to make sure the vendor will prepare you a fresh crepe, not one that's been sitting there a while. The kids will love the filling choices, too.

As a continuation of your daughter's interest in visiting Dachau, stop by the Holocaust memorial just south of Notre Dame in Paris, and when in Venice, take a walk through the jewish ghetto.

The best part of Venice, IMO, is walking around the streets. I especially like the Cannaregio; it seemed like more of a place where real people live. (Though the Doge's Palace is pretty amazing.)

If you can, you might want to wait until after your first day in Paris to leave it to visit Versailles.

I'm unfamiliar with Montreux, but I have visited Gruyeres. I know you said earlier that you really wanted to do the chocolate train. Hmmmm. When I visited Gruyeres, the Cailler-Nestle tour wasn't being held that day, so I couldn't do that, but I did visit the cheese factory, and the experience was somewhat underwhelming. I wouldn't say to not go, but just be prepared for it not to be tremendously exciting. The village of Gruyeres is incredibly cute, though very small. So keep in mind that your chocolate train day, with approx. 3 1/2 hours on the train that day, is bracketed by a 3-hour train ride the day before, and a 5-hour train ride the day after. Which is all ok if that's how you all choose to spend your time.

Enjoy your planning!

I know very little about traveling with children , but I do know this about traveling: make sure you and the kids all eat HUGE breakfasts each morning, and make sure some of that is protein (eggs, bacon or sausage). It will save you from a bunch of snack stops, lethargy and violent mood swings. At least, that's what my husband makes me do whenever we travel!

I'm not sure what this means:

<<London (via Paris) to Koblenz (cruise?) to Bacharach/St. Goar(3+5+2) (3nts)>>

Is this by train? A long and expensive way to get from London to Germany. I would think that far better is to fly ww.germanwings.com - - flights from 20.59 (GBP), departing London (Stansted) at 8:05 am daily, arriving at 10:20 am in Cologne/Bonn - - barely over an hour from there to Koblenz; I would advise car rental from there to Munich, but train would also work, just a little slower, and more luggage-shlepping.

I likewise agree about open jaw flight home from Paris.

Best wishes,

Rex

Hi mberry,

It's great to get that context! Thanks for letting us get to know your priorities & wishes!

Your anticipated travel time from Lauterbrunnen to Montreux is off a bit. If you go via Berne & Lausanne, yes, the train ride is about 3h15. However, if you go by Zweisimmen (the Golden Pass scenic routing), the time is 3h45. To check on these schedules, go to www.rail.ch, and be sure to use the "Via" and input "Zweisimmen." This is another one of those cases where many trains use the same tracks and a few of them have panoramic windows. To get the full scoop on the routing, check out www.goldenpass.ch.

Now, because I recall that you really want to take that chocolate train excursion on day 17, I'll suggest that you move Phil's great idea to your day 16, arrival day in Montreux. In fact, I try to get on a ferry as soon as I check into my hotel in Montreux! You can check the ferry schedules with a pdf file at www.cgn.ch (no summer schedules yet). It would be a great introduction to the area: check into the hotel, stroll to the dock, take the ferry to Chillon, stroll around the castle, and stroll back along the promenade. Ahhh, now I'm dreaming . . .

Let me know if I can help further.

s

Thanks everyone for such encouraging responses. I'll compare the cost of returning from Paris and London. Thanks for that tip and the ones about breakfast and (fresh) crepes!

Great idea (Lexma) about a book with pictures. I've been describing things we could see (in London/Paris), asking for opinions and often getting glazed looks in response. However, my daughter is KEEN on going to Versailles and that's probably because of the pictures (she showed me) in her history book!

I'm especially interested in feedback on the chocolate train since that's a whole day I don't want to waste if it's not worthwhile (and when I could do the cruise on lake Geneva as Phil suggests). But I really do want to see cheesemaking and chocolate making - any recs on where else to see these?

With a distance of 2 and 3 hours between Lauterbrunnen and Lucern/Montreux, wouldn't making day trips out of Lauterbrunnen add a lot of train time? We'll be staying in hostels and carrying backpacks, so hotel checking/packing issues should be less of an issue...I hope.

Rex: (sorry for my cryptic notes)
<<London (via Paris) to Koblenz (cruise?) to Bacharach/St. Goar(3+5+2) (3nts)>>
This just means 3 hours London to Paris plus 5 hours from Paris to Koblenz, plus another 1 or 2 hours, depending whether we travel by boat or train and whether we stay in St. Goar or Bacharach (for 3 nights). I think Russ is right and I'll plan to stay on the train to that destination.

I don't like to fly and I THINK a 5-day, 3 county will cover the time in France, Germany, Italy. That pass (plus the $45 RT chunnel) is why I'd go via Paris, rather than Brussels (which adds an hour to the trip). But I need to check to see how the added cost via Brussels compares to the added day of a pass (particularly if I fly out of Paris).

One advantage in flying out of London is that if I add a day to the trip, we could we could decide then (a bit of planned spontaneity!) whether to spend that last day in London or in Paris.

Russ: My kids really like the idea of staying in a castle, even with the added hike. I'm a seasoned walker, but they are not. Is this a case where I should overrule - or would a better option be to stay there only one night and stay in St. Goar for the other two? (Of course, this may be a moot question if the castle's booked...)

Comments on the hike to Bacharach's castle hostel from ricksteves.com:

"Jugendherberge Stahleck hostel is a 12th-century castle on the hilltop--500 steps above Bacharach--with a royal Rhine view... A steep 20-minute climb on the trail from the town church, the hostel is warmly run by Evelyn and Bernhard Falke (FALL-kay)..."

I think you should discuss it with them. The castle has an amazing view and is much praised by those who stay there. If everyone wants to go, I don't see why not. Your plan to stay there one night and move on to St. Goar makes a lot of sense if you will be there 3 nights and want to avoid the numerous heavy treks up and down that will be required.

mberry:

The chocolate factory at Broc is a huge plant run by Nestle. Due to hygenic restrictions, there is no way to observe the actual production process. In my opinion it is a simple exercise in marketing with the aim to sell lots of slightly reduced-price chocolate from the factory store.

You will be able to gain the same amount of knowledge about the production of chocolate by visiting Nestle's alimentarium museum at Vevey, the town just west of Montreux.

As Vevey is easily reached by steamer, you could combine a lake cruise with visits to Vevey and Chillon on the same day, using a day ticket for the Upper Lake Geneva.

Hope this helps

Phil.