Europe: 3 for 3
Mar 14th, 2004, 05:39 PM
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Europe: 3 for 3
I'm a bit confused; I was trying to preview/edit my message, but may have already posted. This is the final version - so sorry if it's number 2:
I've developed something of an obsession with reading this board - which I've found to be the most active, useful one on the web. I'm planning a 3-week trip for 3 (me and two kids, 14 and 11). It's our first trip together to Europe and after MUCH research, I've come up with an itinerary. But before I start booking too many rooms, I'd love to get some feedback. We're traveling by train (France Pass, Swiss family pass (what a deal!) and pt. to pt. in Italy. Here's how it goes:
day 1-3: London-3+ days/3 nights
day 4: London to Arles-2+ days/2 nights
day 5-6: Arles, etc.
day 7: Arles to Montreux-1+days/2 nights
day 8: Montreux
day 9: Montreux to Lauterbrunnen-2+days/2 nights
day 10: Lauterbrunnen
day 11: Lucern-1 day/1 night)
day 12: Lucern to Chur: Bernini Express to Lugano (not sure where to stop for the night)
day 13-14: Venice-2 days/2 nights)
day 15-16: to Cinque Terre-3 days/2 nights (possible option: leave Venice early, stop in Florence 4+ hours, arrive CT late)
day 17: CT to Nice for overnight train to Paris
day 18-20 Paris-3 days/2 nights
day 21: Bayeux-1+day/2 nights
day 22: Bayeux-Paris-London-home
I know it's a bit ambitious, but notice that we rarely stay less than two nights in one place and there are only four "heavy" (5+ hours) travel days. I will not try to see everything in everyplace - I just want to get a sampling and NEXT time, I'll stay put in a favorite spot and make day trips from there. All observations, suggestions, etc. are most appreciated - especially about "must sees" in any listed destinations. Thanks to all of you already for the great advice I've gleaned from this site and for any more you may offer!
I've developed something of an obsession with reading this board - which I've found to be the most active, useful one on the web. I'm planning a 3-week trip for 3 (me and two kids, 14 and 11). It's our first trip together to Europe and after MUCH research, I've come up with an itinerary. But before I start booking too many rooms, I'd love to get some feedback. We're traveling by train (France Pass, Swiss family pass (what a deal!) and pt. to pt. in Italy. Here's how it goes:
day 1-3: London-3+ days/3 nights
day 4: London to Arles-2+ days/2 nights
day 5-6: Arles, etc.
day 7: Arles to Montreux-1+days/2 nights
day 8: Montreux
day 9: Montreux to Lauterbrunnen-2+days/2 nights
day 10: Lauterbrunnen
day 11: Lucern-1 day/1 night)
day 12: Lucern to Chur: Bernini Express to Lugano (not sure where to stop for the night)
day 13-14: Venice-2 days/2 nights)
day 15-16: to Cinque Terre-3 days/2 nights (possible option: leave Venice early, stop in Florence 4+ hours, arrive CT late)
day 17: CT to Nice for overnight train to Paris
day 18-20 Paris-3 days/2 nights
day 21: Bayeux-1+day/2 nights
day 22: Bayeux-Paris-London-home
I know it's a bit ambitious, but notice that we rarely stay less than two nights in one place and there are only four "heavy" (5+ hours) travel days. I will not try to see everything in everyplace - I just want to get a sampling and NEXT time, I'll stay put in a favorite spot and make day trips from there. All observations, suggestions, etc. are most appreciated - especially about "must sees" in any listed destinations. Thanks to all of you already for the great advice I've gleaned from this site and for any more you may offer!
Mar 14th, 2004, 06:07 PM
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Since you did ask, I would decide on no more than 7 destinations in that time--too much lost time in travel.
You pick it, but I would drop London from both ends and start and end in Paris. The rest looks fairly good, except for the one niter in Luzern. It may be one of your highlights. And, the Bernina Express does not go to Lugano--that is the William Tell. With kids in tow you do not want to live on trains.
You pick it, but I would drop London from both ends and start and end in Paris. The rest looks fairly good, except for the one niter in Luzern. It may be one of your highlights. And, the Bernina Express does not go to Lugano--that is the William Tell. With kids in tow you do not want to live on trains.
Mar 14th, 2004, 06:15 PM
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The Bernina Express terminates in Tirano, but in the summer time, there is a bus that continues from Tirano to Lugano. The bus leaves 2hr 15mins after the train arrives, enough time to have lunch in Tirano.
Mar 14th, 2004, 06:24 PM
#4
While the maximum train travel time in one day may be 5+ hours, I think you may not realise how much time is involved in checking in and out of hotels and getting to and from the train stations with two kids in tow. Everything takes longer than you expect or plan and kids get tired and cranky especially if they are having to transport their own luggage.
Mar 14th, 2004, 06:36 PM
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I'm trying to figure out the London to Arles to Montreux deal. If you really want to do Arles (I'd cut it from this trip, frankly) why not put it between Nice and Paris which is sort of where it is? Or I'd consider flying from Nice to Paris Orly cheap on Easy Jet, instead of the overnight train.
Mar 14th, 2004, 06:41 PM
#6
I assume this trip is planned for the summer (unless you're taking your kids out of school). As kybourbon pointed out, moving around takes longer than you plan. (Four countries and a few thousand miles!) In the summer, you must also factor in the crowds that will be absolutely everywhere. Everything you do will take longer than you plan.
If you follow this itinerary, in my opinion your kids won't remember what they saw where. So much (different) history, culture, customs, scenery, food, languages -- they will be on information overload. I would slow down and limit the destinations so that all of you can appreciated where you are.
If you follow this itinerary, in my opinion your kids won't remember what they saw where. So much (different) history, culture, customs, scenery, food, languages -- they will be on information overload. I would slow down and limit the destinations so that all of you can appreciated where you are.
Mar 14th, 2004, 06:47 PM
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<<I'm a bit confused; I was trying to preview/edit my message, but may have already posted. This is the final version - so sorry if it's number 2
gt;>
A readily available option (which you may not have understood) is to click on your own name - - you could fid any eariler pot you started - - and then put "the final version" as a continuation of the original posting, as a "reply to yourself".
Best wishes,
Rex
gt;>A readily available option (which you may not have understood) is to click on your own name - - you could fid any eariler pot you started - - and then put "the final version" as a continuation of the original posting, as a "reply to yourself".
Best wishes,
Rex
Mar 15th, 2004, 05:25 AM
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Hi mberry,
I agree that your itinerary has too many stops and that it may give you a negative or exhausting impression of your first trip to Europe together. You can see much of the same areas by staying put in one base-spot and doing a few day-trips. That way, at least, when you get to your hotel at the end of the day, you won't be facing the unpacking chores and you'll be familiar with your neighborhood.
But you may also have to put off some destinations on your list -- or see them only from a train window and vow to come back "next time."
So . . . here's an itinerary you may want to try:
Fly into London; train to Paris; train to Nice; train to Cinque Terre; train to Venice; train to Tirano & over Bernina Pass to St. Moritz; train to Luzern; fly out of Zurich. This route makes kind of a big "C" shape. Note that you'll miss Arles but you will pass through Avignon and could get off the train for a walk around to get the feel of Provence. It also skips Montreux, which I personally love but that doesn't really fit the "Swiss-chalet" expectations of many visitors.
An alternate route might be London - Paris - Lauterbrunnen (via Lausanne & Montreux & Zweisimmen -- all day on the train but a great ride) - Luzern - Lugano - Venice and fly out of Venice.
If you can, get an open-jaw ticket.
If you decide to do the base-spot with excursions, come back and we'll help you prioritize and choreograph them . . .
Have fun planning!
s
I agree that your itinerary has too many stops and that it may give you a negative or exhausting impression of your first trip to Europe together. You can see much of the same areas by staying put in one base-spot and doing a few day-trips. That way, at least, when you get to your hotel at the end of the day, you won't be facing the unpacking chores and you'll be familiar with your neighborhood.
But you may also have to put off some destinations on your list -- or see them only from a train window and vow to come back "next time."
So . . . here's an itinerary you may want to try:
Fly into London; train to Paris; train to Nice; train to Cinque Terre; train to Venice; train to Tirano & over Bernina Pass to St. Moritz; train to Luzern; fly out of Zurich. This route makes kind of a big "C" shape. Note that you'll miss Arles but you will pass through Avignon and could get off the train for a walk around to get the feel of Provence. It also skips Montreux, which I personally love but that doesn't really fit the "Swiss-chalet" expectations of many visitors.
An alternate route might be London - Paris - Lauterbrunnen (via Lausanne & Montreux & Zweisimmen -- all day on the train but a great ride) - Luzern - Lugano - Venice and fly out of Venice.
If you can, get an open-jaw ticket.
If you decide to do the base-spot with excursions, come back and we'll help you prioritize and choreograph them . . .
Have fun planning!
s
Mar 15th, 2004, 05:41 AM
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Bob: Since all the destinations in Switzerland are within a couple hours of each other, I do think of this itinerary as 7 destinations (London, Arles, Switzerland, Venice, CT, Paris, Bayeux). My kids would never let me cut London, but I could cut the area around Arles (as Patrick suggests) or Bayeux.
Patrick: I had originally planned the route you suggest, but found it's a shorter trip (via TGV) to Arles than to Monteux. Also, I want to be in Montreux for the "chocolate train" excursion, which only runs on Wed. My kids and I WANT to experience an overnight train. I can't afford a sleeper, but I can afford all 4 beds in a 4-bed couchette from Nice to Paris (all others cost much more). I could cut Arles, but would be sorry to miss the aquaduct, bridge, arena and the van gogh settings. Why do you suggest that area for dropping?
And yes (yk/Bob), I do plan to take the bus from Tirano to Lugano since it's a shorter train ride to Venice from there and also because s (in another thread) said it was fun. Thanks for the suggestion about lunch. Any recs about where to stop for the night? (I'm thinking Milan (or beyond) in order to have a direct train to Venice the next day.)
Perhaps it's worth mentioning that we are taking backpacks only and since I hate shopping, we'll be adding little to our very light packing. Also, most stops (so far) are very close to train stations (I'm afraid too close, in some cases...)
Rex: yes, thank you - I was just confused by seeing my message to the left of the screen when I was editing.
Patrick: I had originally planned the route you suggest, but found it's a shorter trip (via TGV) to Arles than to Monteux. Also, I want to be in Montreux for the "chocolate train" excursion, which only runs on Wed. My kids and I WANT to experience an overnight train. I can't afford a sleeper, but I can afford all 4 beds in a 4-bed couchette from Nice to Paris (all others cost much more). I could cut Arles, but would be sorry to miss the aquaduct, bridge, arena and the van gogh settings. Why do you suggest that area for dropping?
And yes (yk/Bob), I do plan to take the bus from Tirano to Lugano since it's a shorter train ride to Venice from there and also because s (in another thread) said it was fun. Thanks for the suggestion about lunch. Any recs about where to stop for the night? (I'm thinking Milan (or beyond) in order to have a direct train to Venice the next day.)
Perhaps it's worth mentioning that we are taking backpacks only and since I hate shopping, we'll be adding little to our very light packing. Also, most stops (so far) are very close to train stations (I'm afraid too close, in some cases...)
Rex: yes, thank you - I was just confused by seeing my message to the left of the screen when I was editing.
Mar 15th, 2004, 05:51 AM
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Hi mberry,
I think you have my advice confused with someone else. I've never taken the bus from Tirano to Lugano; I've only taken the train from St Moritz to Poschiavo and returned to Pontresina & the Engadin. I hope I haven't mis-spoken . . .
Or do you mean another s??
Anyway, have fun planning this adventure!
s
I think you have my advice confused with someone else. I've never taken the bus from Tirano to Lugano; I've only taken the train from St Moritz to Poschiavo and returned to Pontresina & the Engadin. I hope I haven't mis-spoken . . .
Or do you mean another s??
Anyway, have fun planning this adventure!
s
Mar 15th, 2004, 07:09 AM
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Hi mberry-
Yes, it was me who said the bus ride was fun. Let me elaborate. I was in Switzerland for about 10 days until I took the Bernina Express. In Switzerland, everything is very well-run and "manicured". However, the bus ride from Tirano-Lugano was very un-Swiss. Since a good part of the route is in Italy, the bus driver was Italian. While the bus was going through these tiny tiny Italian towns with streets that barely fit one car, it was fun to watch the driver maneuver our bus through. When the bus finally drove across the border from Italy to Switzerland, there was a dramatic change in the road condition: the Swiss side of the road is twice as wide as the Italian side.
The bus ride also made a 15-min stop in Porleeza, which is a cute little town.
For me at that time, the bus ride was fun because it was so different from what I had experienced in Switzerland. However, after visiting the Amalfi Coast since then and had rode on the SITA bus, that bus ride from Tirano-Lugano cannot compare.
So mberry, if your schedule is tight, you don't HAVE to include that bus ride, esp since you will be visiting Italy later on in your trip.
Yes, it was me who said the bus ride was fun. Let me elaborate. I was in Switzerland for about 10 days until I took the Bernina Express. In Switzerland, everything is very well-run and "manicured". However, the bus ride from Tirano-Lugano was very un-Swiss. Since a good part of the route is in Italy, the bus driver was Italian. While the bus was going through these tiny tiny Italian towns with streets that barely fit one car, it was fun to watch the driver maneuver our bus through. When the bus finally drove across the border from Italy to Switzerland, there was a dramatic change in the road condition: the Swiss side of the road is twice as wide as the Italian side.
The bus ride also made a 15-min stop in Porleeza, which is a cute little town.
For me at that time, the bus ride was fun because it was so different from what I had experienced in Switzerland. However, after visiting the Amalfi Coast since then and had rode on the SITA bus, that bus ride from Tirano-Lugano cannot compare.
So mberry, if your schedule is tight, you don't HAVE to include that bus ride, esp since you will be visiting Italy later on in your trip.
Mar 15th, 2004, 07:56 AM
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Sorry, I am still confused. Why Lugano?
If you want to get to venice just train to Milan from Tirano. The train from Lugano will go there too.
And, the CH is still multiple destinations because you change hotels.
Luzern is worth 3 days--I would drop Arles and Montreaux. Overall, too much here to enjoy your trip.
If you want to get to venice just train to Milan from Tirano. The train from Lugano will go there too.
And, the CH is still multiple destinations because you change hotels.
Luzern is worth 3 days--I would drop Arles and Montreaux. Overall, too much here to enjoy your trip.
Mar 15th, 2004, 02:39 PM
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To answer your question of why I suggested dropping Arles -- it is because it is so far out of the way. It may be a shorter trip to there than to Montreux, but you're doing both, which together is a lot of travel. Arles is great, it just seems so odd to go so far for a couple days when the entire area warrants weeks worth of exploration. It seems sort of like someone from London coming to the states for a couple weeks and concentrating on the east coast, but saying, I'm also going by train to New Orleans for two nights, after New York but before Washington.
Mar 15th, 2004, 04:56 PM
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With the high speed train, it's only a 3 hour trip from Paris to Avignon, so it's more like someone landing in Baltimore (my hometown) and shooting down to Richmond before heading up to NYC. Does that seem unreasonable (if there's something they really want to see in Richmond)?
Mar 15th, 2004, 05:10 PM
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Paris to Arles is a little over 4 hours. Arles to Montreux is a little over 6 hours. In other words, 10 hours of tran travel for less than two days of a stay.
Ok, so it sounds like you've thought of every angle and your mind is made up. Remind me again what it is you're looking for here. Are you looking for suggestions or congratulations?
Ok, so it sounds like you've thought of every angle and your mind is made up. Remind me again what it is you're looking for here. Are you looking for suggestions or congratulations?
Mar 15th, 2004, 05:12 PM
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Oh, and by the way, a TGV from Paris to Montreux is only a few minutes longer than the trip from Paris to Arles. What was your point again about that being closer and not counting backtracking 6 hours to Montreux? I'm confused.
Mar 15th, 2004, 05:32 PM
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3 days in 5 Terre and only 2 in Venice seems a bit out of kilter. Certainly don't cut any time from Venice--you already are shortchanging one of the world's unique treasures. 5 Terre is pretty, but there are many pretty places in Italy. There is only one Venice.
Mar 15th, 2004, 06:48 PM
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Ok - why exactly did you post this? You ask for feedback - have received a lot of REALLY good responses with good explanations of some problems built into your plans - but seem to be totally set on your itinerary.
If you just wanted us to see where you were going - why ask for feedback? And if you wanted feedback - why not be more open to what everyone is saying?
If you just wanted us to see where you were going - why ask for feedback? And if you wanted feedback - why not be more open to what everyone is saying?
Mar 15th, 2004, 07:54 PM
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I hate to add to the general negativity, and you've obviously thought a lot about specific places and activities that are important to you and your kids, but your itinerary does seem overly ambitious.
You should try to schedule some 3-night stays. Even two nights will seem all too short when what you're really talking about is a stay of two half days (maybe) and only one full day (that's what the Cinque Terre sounds like it will be).
I would suggest sitting down with a map, you and the kids, and step through what would be involved on some of your days (or maybe all of them). For example, from Venice, get up, eat breakfast, walk to the train station, ride for __ hours, then at ___ o'clock, get off in Cinque Terre, walk to hotel, check in. Have __ hours before dinner. Also, have each member of the group make a list of their "must-sees" for each destination. You may find that the must-sees don't fit into the time you have, so you might use that "must-see" list to cut or add time.
Another consideration: if you want to be able to speak a few phrases (or more) of travel German/French/Italian, keep in mind that somebody will have to keep three languages straight.
I really enjoy Arles, for all the sights you mentioned (how do you plan to get to the Pont du Gard?) but would say it's special when viewed as part of a whole with other destinations in Provence; I wouldn't go to Provence and visit only Arles. I would probably suggest dropping Arles, and adding the time to all/any of your other destinations. (It'll give you an excuse for another trip, to Provence.)
I also question Bayeux. Is it just for the tapestry? I'd drop that, spend more time in Paris, and make sure to visit the Cluny and their tapestries.
You should try to schedule some 3-night stays. Even two nights will seem all too short when what you're really talking about is a stay of two half days (maybe) and only one full day (that's what the Cinque Terre sounds like it will be).
I would suggest sitting down with a map, you and the kids, and step through what would be involved on some of your days (or maybe all of them). For example, from Venice, get up, eat breakfast, walk to the train station, ride for __ hours, then at ___ o'clock, get off in Cinque Terre, walk to hotel, check in. Have __ hours before dinner. Also, have each member of the group make a list of their "must-sees" for each destination. You may find that the must-sees don't fit into the time you have, so you might use that "must-see" list to cut or add time.
Another consideration: if you want to be able to speak a few phrases (or more) of travel German/French/Italian, keep in mind that somebody will have to keep three languages straight.
I really enjoy Arles, for all the sights you mentioned (how do you plan to get to the Pont du Gard?) but would say it's special when viewed as part of a whole with other destinations in Provence; I wouldn't go to Provence and visit only Arles. I would probably suggest dropping Arles, and adding the time to all/any of your other destinations. (It'll give you an excuse for another trip, to Provence.)
I also question Bayeux. Is it just for the tapestry? I'd drop that, spend more time in Paris, and make sure to visit the Cluny and their tapestries.
