I like Jess’ idea of a game, it helps keeps things light. In fact, I’d take it further and indicate that you are looking forward to sharing a bottle of an exceptional wine....but on your last night. For each of the first five nights, keep emphasizing that you will be getting to drink an exceptional wine....later. (Meanwhile, you drink a simpler wine, or go on the wagon temporarily.) This will help get the other couple off the hook and not feel too gluttonous guzzling the expensive stuff in front of you, and you won’t feel as much the poor relations, either. It’s just a game of postponement. (Jess, thank you, I have the feeling your idea has many other applications.)

I don't know where you got the idea we would drink the wine and not expect to pay for it! Solomon..you hit it right on. It's a little humiliating to admit to people you can't afford to drink the good wine they can when you're away with them. This is a great couple, they just have a thing about "good" wine...actually they're wine snobs-there I've said it! Wouldn't matter what the wine tastes like - if it's cheap it must be bad.

Europe - get over the shyness about we can't afford it and hate to mention. Our friends range from people who make less than half our salary and friends who have more money than we'll see in a lifetime. You're obviously good friends if you're traveling and frankly we respect each other alot more for being honest.<BR><BR>We've told our wealthier friends we'd love to go to dinner with them, but just renovated a condo and need to go somewhere moderate. They could care less and I think appreciate the fact that you aren't expecting them to pick up the check. Same with friends who make less, we're happy to go somewhere casual or often we have dinner parties at each other's house.<BR><BR>PS - I'm going to Paris with these friends in October and they're staying at the Four Seasons George V and I'm staying at Hotel du Bourg Tibourg in the Marais. There only response was they're glad they're going to get to know the Marais better since I'll be staying there.<BR><BR>Have a great time, be straight forward and don't worry about the keeping up with the Jones'. If they do have a problem or make an issue of it (which I doubt they will) then this says alot about the value of their friendship.

oops....Their. Off to grammar class I go.

PS regarding the wine snob issue, people don't know wine much if they think expensive = good. The Wall Street just had an article about that saying there's great inexpensive wines (especially in Italy) and there's alot of expensive bad wine on store shelves.

A "Friends" episode had this very problem; resentment built when the issue wasn't immediately addressed. If your friends are worthy travel companions, they're worth honesty. For couple #1, bring up the subject and the solution "we want to be fair; since we will be ordering wine, we'll pay that first before we split the bill" (no tax headaches - it's included in the price of each item, so a $20 bottle of wine already has tax included). The conversation with couple #2 should be just as easy "we know you appreciate fine wines with your meals; we're looking forward to trying some of the local wines. Would it be easier to each pay for our wines separately BEFORE we split the check?" This says you're not nitpickers ("ok you had the terrine and you had the shrimp cocktail which didn't come with the meal...") but you want to be fair.<BR><BR>There are two alternatives: 1)Pick up the tab alternate nights. You pay the entire tab on day one, they pay on day two, etc. 2)Put money in a kitty - everyday, each couple puts in $100 or whatever you decide. Meals (EXCLUSIVE OF ALCOHOL) are paid from the kitty (no need to do math). <BR><BR>This is one of those minor details that can become monumental if it doesn't get resolved early.

Hi europe. Well, technically, I'm sure you *can* afford to drink more expensive wine -- after all, it's usually just a matter of priorities -- but you just don't care to. And I fail to see why anyone should feel humiliated by that. <BR><BR>If this couple is, in fact, a "great" couple, they shouldn't look down their noses at you guys for drinking what you prefer. <BR><BR>Also, this is sure to drive wine snobs ballistic, but whether a wine is "good" or "bad" rests in the eye of the beholder...or, more appropriately, palate of the imbiber. If a less expensive wine tastes good to *you*, then it's "good", no matter what your $50/bottle friends think. <BR><BR>Also regarding xxx's P.S. regarding the wine snob issue, I haven't read the Wall Street Journal article he/she mentioned (do you have a link to that, xxx?), but check out this interesting article in the Seattle Weekly from February of this year: "Wine Snob Scandal."<BR><BR>A Frenchman named Fr&eacute;d&eacute;ric Brochet did a doctoral dissertation entitled "Taste: A Study in the Representation of Chemical Substances in the Arena of Consciousness" which was concerned not with taste in general but specifically with taste as applied to the evaluation and appreciation of wine. <BR><BR>Monsieur Brochet employed three distinct methodologies: <BR><BR>. computerized textual analysis of over 100,000 expert tasting notes (including 9,000 by American wine guru Robert M. Parker Jr.); <BR><BR>. comparison of ratings by expert tasters in totally blind and open tastings of the same wines; <BR><BR>. and real-time functional magnetic imaging of the brains of tasters in the act of tasting. <BR><BR>The article notes that, after appropriate statistical massaging, his results prove that a lot of what wine connoisseurs say about wine is humbug: A side-by-side chart of best-to-worst rankings of 18 wines by a roster of experienced tasters showed about as much consistency as a table of random numbers. <BR><BR><BR>While he may have played more "dirty tricks" on his volunteers, the article specifically points out these two (the second I find particulary hilarious, as well as not all that surprising):<BR><BR>. In one tasting, he served a white wine and elicited all the usual descriptions: "fresh, dry, honeyed, lively." Later he served the same wine dyed red: Out came the red terms: "intense, spicy, supple, deep." <BR><BR>. In another test, he submitted a mid-range Bordeaux in two different bottles, one labeled as a cheap table wine, the other bearing a grand cru etiquette: Guess which one was "woody, complex, and round" and which was "short, light, and faulty"? <BR><BR>The article also notes that Brochet's study aims to go beyond mere pantsing of poseurs. In the introduction to his prizewinning paper, he writes: <BR><BR>"Tasting is [a form of] representation. Indeed, when our brain performs the task of 'recognizing' or 'comprehending,' it is manipulating representations. In reality, the taste of wine is a *perceptual representation*, because it manifests an interaction between consciousness and reality." <BR><BR><BR><BR>

Sorry, forgot to post the URL for the "Wine Snob Scandal" article:<BR><BR>http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0208/news-downey.shtml<BR><BR>P.S. europe, you could always go to a restaurant ahead of time, and pay someone a few euros to pour their house wine into an expensive bottle (when they bring it to your table, your waiter could say someone "mistakenly" opened it.) Then you could offer some of it to your $50/bottle friends and see if they look like they just drank poison...or gush about how delcious it is and what a superb choice you made. <BR><BR>Anyway, bottom line: don't let the wine snobs scare ya!

I think this whole matter has less to do with expensive wine and more to do with communicating with travel partners. Perhaps you like to take cabs and they prefer to walk? Or you like to spend hours in museums and they get bored after a few minutes? Or you prefer a day in the country while they are city people? You get the idea. It's always wise to spell out your expectations, ground rules, and what you are willing to compromise on PRIOR to the trip. Buon viaggio!

We know alot of wealthy people, couples who we consider friends, who only want the best. We laugh about it and say, ok, you order "xxxxx", we are ordering "xxxx". If they want to go to very expensive restaurants, we say, go ahead we will meet up later, we're going to a tratoria that we want to try, or something like that.

Make sure you are agreeable to splitting up at dinner, maybe they want to go to an expensive restaurant and are willing for forego it because you aren't up to it. Let them know that they are free to eat anywhere without you.

In Italy I bought myself and my husband the wine I wanted whether it was expensive or not. Our friends would buy their wine by the glass and would have "just a taste" of ours and would end up drinking a good part of the bottle, and we ended up paying. After a few days, I started ordering by the glass too, before I started feeling badly towards them.

We were with another couple who the wife does not drink alcohol, and her husband prefers beer. Every night he would take "just a sip" of the wine we bought, then would continue to fill his glass with wine. Until we started ordering ours by the glass...<BR><BR>One night we had dinner at a restaurant that I had told them in advance was about $75 per person with wine. They were okay with eating there, until the bill was brought. The wife who did not drink was upset that their bill was $150 also, since they did not have any wine. Well her husband had drank about 8 beers that night. <BR><BR>So have to agree, it should be something agreed upon beforehand because this did leave a bad taste in our mouth , along with some other similar situations.

I'm another one who believes you must address this and many other issues prior to the trip or you may wind up minus some friends. What makes you so sure that saying you don't want expensive wine means you can't afford it? I can afford it, but prefer not to spend my money that way, and I'm upfront with travel companions right away.<BR><BR>I make sure we are on the same wave length as far as financial considerations, how time is spent. I met with a friend over the weekend and we discussed our upcoming trip to Thailand. We agreed that we will do the "sightseeing" thing in the mornings and relax with massages in the hot afternoons (doesn't that sound great?) Better to go with a clear understanding of each other's expectations than have hard feelings later.

In agreement with Nutella, this is not really about wine (well only in a very round-about way). You need to be able to communicate openly about ANYthing that comes up during the course of a trip with your chosen 5 companions. The cost of a meal and/or drinks may turn out to be the least of your problems. Get it out in the open!! Don't be shy about addressing issues. It will only bite you in the b*tt quicker than you can imagine!<BR><BR>And as for the people who are drinking wine paid for by others when this is not what was 'expected' by either party... well if your friends really are so lacking in manners and sensitivity, I would question your own choice of traveling with them in the first place.

Marcia and Lisa, with most of our friends, an agreement is an agreement. But one couple in particular would behave as the ones you describe did. Specifically, they’d agree to one thing, and then do another, no matter how clearly we thought everything had been communicated beforehand. This was what really irked – the betrayal of trust, not the value of the wine (or whatever) being taken. I wonder if it was/is the same with you (or anyone else reading.) <BR><BR>We haven’t seen that couple in a long time. But if something like it happened again, I’d be willing to try a reverse version of what I suggested above. To the friend trespassing on my boundaries I’d try saying, humourously but firmly, that tonight is No-taste, No-share Night, whereas next time (or tomorrow or the last day or whenever) is the night we’ll look forward to sharing with them. I know I wouldn’t be willing let alone able to enforce any ultimatums, so I wouldn’t make any. Besides, as I said, it isn’t really the wine or whatever that is at issue. What I’d want to do is ensure that my friends understood that their ‘minimizing’ the violation by saying “we’re ‘just’ doing this” is the harm I consider being done, because in minimizing their actions, they seemed to me to be minimizing the importance of trust in friendships. And as I said, the undermining of trust undermined the friendship, not the loss of the wine or the money or whatever. I’d be interested to hear others’ take on this, especially since I may have overlooked something.<BR>

Sue, <BR><BR>Yes, it was not the cost of the wine whatsoever. And we were not drinking $50 USD bottles of wine, more like $20 USD, but it could have been $100 or $5, we would have felt the same.<BR><BR>And ex-waitress, we had no idea that this person would behave as he did. We were completely surprised as this behaviour did not "fit" the mold of this person.

Sue,<BR><BR>Are you a preschool teacher? Perhaps your methodology has some credibility with the five and under set but I can't believe you'd look an adult in the eye and say "No Tastee, No Sharee tonite folks!"<BR><BR>I'm going to assume that your boundary stomping ex friends aren't around by mutual agreement.

Europe,<BR><BR>As with most things, this seemingly complex set of problems can be solved, quite simply, through the application of mathematics and logic.<BR><BR>Since couple #1 doesn't drink (are you sure you really wish to travel with them?) we will assign them a value of "0". And, since couple #2 obviously drink like fish, we will assign them a value of "10". You two--being in the middle--receive a value of "5".<BR><BR>Now, let's say all three couples are out to dinner together on a Tuesday evening in August. First, don't order the oysters because August doesn't have an "r" in it...but I digress. <BR><BR>FIRST, look at the date on which you are eating (for arguments sake let's say it's September 7th, 1941--a day that will live in infamy! Sorry about that, I digressed again). Okay, it's definitely September 7th but of the current year. So there you are eating on Tuesday, September 7th, 2002. Wait a second...September 7th of this year is actually on a Saturday. Okay. I've got it now. All three couples are eating out at the restaurant on Saturday, September 7th, 2002. Are you with me so far?<BR><BR>The second thing you must do is further assign values to the days of the week and month of the year; the actual calendar day already has its own value of "7". Since a week traditionally begins with Sunday (except in the countries where it does not) then Saturday, being the seventh day of the week, receives a value of “7”. September, being the ninth month of the year, receives a value of “9”. Still with me? Good.<BR><BR>Now that we have values assigned to all the factors, it becomes a simple case to determine who pays for what and on which night. In our example, for example, we have three couples (3x2=6) dining on Saturday (Saturday=7) September 7th (September 7th = 9x7=63) in 2002 (2002). This equation can be replaced quite simply by: 2002/6x7+7x63. The answer, of course, is 4.14492753623188405797101449275362. If you take this number and then multiply it by the value assigned to each couple, you have your answer.<BR><BR>What does this mean? It’s quite simple, really. Since couple number two’s value is “10” and you multiply 4.14492753623188405797101449275362 by ten, then if the total cost of the bill is around or over $41.44 on this particular night then they pay it. If, however, the total bill is at least—but not over--$20.72 then “Europe” pays it (4.14492753623188405797101449275362 x 5). Finally, if the total bill is –0-, then couple number one pays it (4.14492753623188405797101449275362 x 0 = 0). <BR><BR>One last thing: the time of the dinner may be a factor as well.<BR><BR>Hope this helps,<BR><BR>Dr. Al<BR><BR>

Dr. Al, you are too much!! Reading your post was a good way for me to start the weekend. Glad to know some of you do have personalities afterall, I was beginning to wonder with all the boring posts lately.