English speaking
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:14 AM
#21
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Dutch is soooo close to German, yet the Dutch have such a strong "Dutch" accent when speaking German. However, I've got no problems reading Dutch books and I've never had a single Dutch language lesson 
Must be naturally talented opposed to those Americans ;-)
Must be naturally talented opposed to those Americans ;-)
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:18 AM
#22
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I met a girl in Cambridge whose English accent I couldn't quite place. It sounded a little midlands, a little Yorkshire, and a little BBC, but not exactly any of them. I asked her where she was from.
"Utrecht."
"Utrecht."
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:29 AM
#23
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And yes, German will do fine in Dutch speaking areas if you can speak it. You're being understood 100%, but sometimes the answer comes in English, because people didn't learn German and are afraid of making a mistake.
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:37 AM
#24
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There are native speakers of English who do make many errors, but in my 50 years of travel I have rarely come across a non-native speaker of the language who doesn't make errors as well.
A particular non-native English speaker might or might or might not say "You did good," but he will likely come out with some very interesting phrasing of his own creation.
A particular non-native English speaker might or might or might not say "You did good," but he will likely come out with some very interesting phrasing of his own creation.
Apr 15th, 2006, 07:01 AM
#26
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Neopolitan...
You essentially finally got it correct...Flemish essentially is Dutch. There is also, from what I read and I have not experienced this pesonally, quite a bit of friction between the Flemish and French areas of the country and perhaps a Flemish person would rather speak to a tourist in English rather than French (note I said perhaps before anybody jumps on me).
You essentially finally got it correct...Flemish essentially is Dutch. There is also, from what I read and I have not experienced this pesonally, quite a bit of friction between the Flemish and French areas of the country and perhaps a Flemish person would rather speak to a tourist in English rather than French (note I said perhaps before anybody jumps on me).
Apr 15th, 2006, 07:56 AM
#27
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Dragonfly...just to throw another curve ball...when in Antwerp, especially in the diamond exchange area, Yiddish will get you by better than any other language. There are over 25,000 pure Yiddish speakers within that colorful city....one of the largest concentrations remaining in the world, after the decimation, 1933-1945.
Stu T.
Stu T.
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:21 AM
#28
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Hi dragonfly,
my daughter goes to Belgium and Amsterdam every year, she rented an apt one year, and she does not speak anything but a bit of German and English.
She stays at the Hotel Welcome in Brussels, they all speak English in the hotel. Antwerp is where she rented a car and drove to look at the countryside.
She never has a problem with the language.
Marling Menu Master is good to take with you for restaurants, but I think you will manage fine , I never hear any stories of people having a problem.
(Practice some basics anyway-please, thank you and hello, that sort of thing)
my daughter goes to Belgium and Amsterdam every year, she rented an apt one year, and she does not speak anything but a bit of German and English.
She stays at the Hotel Welcome in Brussels, they all speak English in the hotel. Antwerp is where she rented a car and drove to look at the countryside.
She never has a problem with the language.
Marling Menu Master is good to take with you for restaurants, but I think you will manage fine , I never hear any stories of people having a problem.
(Practice some basics anyway-please, thank you and hello, that sort of thing)
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:50 AM
#30
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Cotswold...you appartently misread my statement above..of course I was referring to the decimation caused by the holocaust..6 million of the Europes 9 million Jews, most of them Yiddish-speakers. The 25,000 or so Yiddish speakers in Antwerp today represent one of the largest concentrations remaining.
Stu T.
Stu T.
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:55 AM
#31
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Let me play arbitrator here.
I believe Cotswald was referring to the often misuse of the term decimated. It does not mean "wiped out" as some would believe. Decimation is the act of removing every tenth person or 10%. For the decimation of the 9 million Jews in Europe, only 900,000 would have been killed. What happened was far worse than decimation of a race.
His comment that the results were ten times that in Antwerp refers to the fact that they were totally removed.
I believe Cotswald was referring to the often misuse of the term decimated. It does not mean "wiped out" as some would believe. Decimation is the act of removing every tenth person or 10%. For the decimation of the 9 million Jews in Europe, only 900,000 would have been killed. What happened was far worse than decimation of a race.
His comment that the results were ten times that in Antwerp refers to the fact that they were totally removed.
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:01 AM
#32
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oops. And lest I get attacked by the purists and the pedantic here, yes I do realize that this is another of those words that frequent misuse has allowed a possibly accepted technically incorrect usage of the term. The term decimate today may indicate a major drastic reduction -- but still not total.
Apr 15th, 2006, 10:08 AM
#33
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Neopolitan...that's why my publisher assigns a very good editor to me! Thank goodness!
Reducing the holocaust to numbers is something I've always hesitated to touch, having lost a major part of those blood relations we still had in Eastern Europe at the time. As far as we've ever been able to determine, only three survived out of about 60 on my dad's side. My dad and his immediate family had emigrated to USA waay back in 1912-1914, but unfortunately many other segments of the family stayed on.
Stu T.
Reducing the holocaust to numbers is something I've always hesitated to touch, having lost a major part of those blood relations we still had in Eastern Europe at the time. As far as we've ever been able to determine, only three survived out of about 60 on my dad's side. My dad and his immediate family had emigrated to USA waay back in 1912-1914, but unfortunately many other segments of the family stayed on.
Stu T.
Apr 15th, 2006, 10:40 AM
#34
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There is no one set correct form of English. English changes every day. Context or lexical context will depend on meanings each speaker and listener agree to. A Grammar gaff is nothing, a vocabulary error may be a disaster. i asked for a short trim. I got a short trim!
Apr 15th, 2006, 10:40 AM
#35
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Neopolitan,
If someone wanted to be pedantic he could say that "mediator" would have been a better choice that "arbitator" since the latter is generally a person who is chosen by the parties in dispute while the former is someone who intervenes for the purpose of conciliating the parties.
He might also say that the phrase "...referring to the often misuse of..." is improperly constructed. "Frequent misuse" or "common misuse" might be what you should have written.
However, as I am not a pedant I wouldn't do that.
If someone wanted to be pedantic he could say that "mediator" would have been a better choice that "arbitator" since the latter is generally a person who is chosen by the parties in dispute while the former is someone who intervenes for the purpose of conciliating the parties.
He might also say that the phrase "...referring to the often misuse of..." is improperly constructed. "Frequent misuse" or "common misuse" might be what you should have written.
However, as I am not a pedant I wouldn't do that.
Apr 15th, 2006, 11:13 AM
#37
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I'm so glad you wouldn't. I've had enough of the pedantic diatribes around here lately, including one that went on and on about the spelling of my screen name. I look at this forum as a fun place to browse and talk about travel and related issues, and would prefer not to have to proof every thing I say with a stack full of dictionaries. That screen name diatribe even got into the silly "my dictionary is better than your 8 dictionaries" argument. Who cares?
And I didn't mean to take over and speak for Cotswold. It's just that I knew what he was driving at and felt I could explain it.
Did I really say, "often misuse of the term"? Oh well, as I said, "who cares?"
And I didn't mean to take over and speak for Cotswold. It's just that I knew what he was driving at and felt I could explain it.
Did I really say, "often misuse of the term"? Oh well, as I said, "who cares?"
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:15 PM
#38
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How refreshing to see such a declaration of principles from one who was googling frantically for the most pedantic definition of megalopolis he could find to win the pettiest points imaginable.
The overwhelming majority of Belgians in Brussels, Brugge and Antwerp -- where the oringial poster is going -- are very well-schooled in English, and it is reflected in the speech. Wish America had their teachers for the past 25 years! Maybe some of the people so exercised by seeing that in print might actually visit Brussels, Antwerp and Bruges sometime and listen. (That is if they ever stop pontificating.)
Goes out of the realm of being pedantic or literalminded into just plain knuckleheaded.
The overwhelming majority of Belgians in Brussels, Brugge and Antwerp -- where the oringial poster is going -- are very well-schooled in English, and it is reflected in the speech. Wish America had their teachers for the past 25 years! Maybe some of the people so exercised by seeing that in print might actually visit Brussels, Antwerp and Bruges sometime and listen. (That is if they ever stop pontificating.)
Goes out of the realm of being pedantic or literalminded into just plain knuckleheaded.
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:17 PM
#39
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"The English language has been gradually eroded..."
"Erosion" is a natural process, whether geologic or linguistic. Languages are not static. Nor is their evolution the result of laziness or carelessness. Language evolves because societies evolve, along with their needs.
Certainly an individual can be ignorant of grammar, punctuation and spelling, but an individual cannot change a language. Personally, I still cringe whenever I see a split infinitive, but it is increasingly accepted. Even a few of my grammar books now refuse to condemn the practice.
On the original topic of English speakers in Belgium, I had a memorable experience last year in Leuven.
A young woman (probably a student) approached me in a laundromat and began speaking a Germanic-sounding language, which I assumed was Flemish. From my expression and body language, she almost instantly sensed that I didn't speak the language and switched to French, practically in mid-sentence. I read French well, but speak it only rather poorly. From my obvious American accent she deduced that I was an English speaker and effortlessy switched to English. The most amazing thing about the encounter was the fluidity of the process. I was profoundly impressed.
She was also typically Belgian in another sense. She was very friendly and sociable.
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:26 PM
#40
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Sorry, everyone...I innocently made mention of one other language that one commonly hears on the streets of Antwerp. I did this just on the off chance that the OP knew Yiddish. I had no desire to get into a pedantic avalanche. Our allegiance and attention must be to the OP and his/her quest for information. Or am I mistaken?
Stu T.
Stu T.
