A great flick (by the way) but, I have another BIGGER problem. We are to spend 5-6 days in Paris and two days in Normandy (soon). Then we head (by train), for two days in Florence; one day in Pisa; and two to three days in Roma. My wife is really (NO, I MEAN REALLY) upset about having our children (ages 10 and 14) out of school for even that long. I keep telling her that, what they will learn there, will completely overshadow (if not overwhelm) ANYTHING they could EVER possibly learn in ANY school! But, it is NO USE! I had originally planned on three weeks minimum. She insists that we are back in two weeks MAXIMUM! She will not budge! But, Oh well. I guess it will be a lot for them to make up. They both are (and have been) straight 'A' students. Please help, be you for or against me (especially if you are grade school or middle school teachers)? Thanks a bunch, <BR> <BR>Mr. "C"

I agree, travel is a great education, but, as a retired teacher, I would have been pretty dismayed for the children to be taken out of school so early in the school year. I guess since you couldn't, or didn't, go during school recess, you are stuck. That is one nice thing about school scheduling now, so many are year around and have vacations for a bit in summer, fall and spring. I'd probably go along with two weeks, although, since you are already spending the money, another week can't make much difference...guess you could say I'm kinda wishy-washy about this.

Dave, <BR>To begin with, contact your youngsters' teachers and get their opinion; I feel sure those opinions will reinforce yours rather than your wife's. In the interim, up till the day you arrive in Paris, bone up on every bit of European history that you can. For the kids benefit, contrast the American Revolution with the French and the connsequences of both; the Roman and Napoleonic Empires and the results of their demise. Familiarize yourself with the Renaissance and the art, architecture and sculpture that eminated from it and similarly, the influence of the Church of Rome on the art of the mid 15th to mid 16th centuries. Show how the powerful influence of the Church was diminished by the Reformation and how that lessening of power resulted in a dramatic change in art subjects: from religious themes to secular and mythological ones. Get the kids to think about how the domes in Florence's Duomo and Rome's St. Peter's were constructed centuries ago; have them figure out why the walls of Paris' Notre Dame don't collapse from the weight of the roof. Make your journey one of enlightenment!

We took our kids out of school several times to take them to Europe and it never did them a scrap of harm.If they are clever they will soon make it up. <BR>I used to ask the teachers what was on the syllabus for the time we were away.Then my husband or I would go over it with them.Sometimes they had extra homework after we got back. <BR>The kids never minded the extra homework it was worth it to them in order to see Europe. <BR>I think it would be a crying shame to cut your holiday short.Once your wife is there she will change her mind in a hurry.She won't want to come home. <BR>The kids will learn about art,history and life first hand.Much more interesting than out of a text book.

Dave, <BR> <BR>Are your kids excited about going? Or are they just excited about getting out of school for two weeks? <BR> <BR>The plane trip over to Europe is quite a few hours. Ask your kid's teachers for their homework assignments in advance and have them do the homework on the plane and/or while you are in a car or on a train going between areas. This could at least give your wife a little peace of mind. <BR>Kittie <BR>(p.s. I wish my parents would have taken me to Europe when I was in school- I would have loved it and worked extra hard to make up the school work).

We took ours when they were 14 and 12. Didn't do a bit of harm. An idea: each child should keep his/her own daily diary which is to be handed in to their teachers upon their return. Why a full day in Pisa? After the Leaning Tower and the Baptistry -- they are within a stone's throw of each other -- there's not much else to see there. Use the extra time for Florence and/or Rome.

Have to disagree re Pisa, Al - I found the Cathedral itself of great interest, as well as the Camposanto and Cathedral Museum. Of my time in Pisa (day trip from Lucca) I probably spent the least amount of time viewing the Leaning Tower.

Dave: About 25 years ago, when our twin daughters were thirteen we had planned an extended trip. The thinking of our school system at that time was that travel was enlightening and educational. Our girls were also good students. They have turned out extremely well, very successful, happily married with children of their own. They relate stories of our trip to their kids. The bottom line is that what they encountered on our trip left a far greater impression on them than what they may have learned in school during that time. In the grand scheme of life your European vacation should be a great experience for them. Enjoy!! <BR>

Dave: After telling you of our personal experiences in the post above, keep in mind the old saying....If Momma ain't happy, ain't Nobody happy!!!! <BR>

Ok Dave, here's the deal. We live in Scotland for a 2 year stint. We only lived in our house in Phoenix for 9 months before we decided to uproot our kids yet again to come over here. (Our kids are a bit younger than yours - 6 and 8) Part of the reason we did this was for the incredible opportunity our kids would get to live and learn how others live. Sometimes our travels take us out of school for a bit. When the school gives us two days off in a week, we take the whole week. I wrote the headmaster of our school and explained our situation. He agreed with me and gave us permission to go providing that we get all the work the kids would miss and make it up. We also have the kids do their own diaries. The school gives them blank jotters and the kids fill them in with each day's activities. They glue in metro tickets, show tickets, entrance stubs, postcards, brochures, airplane tix etc., draw pictures and write about what they've seen. The finished product is an incredible reminder of a trip they took, the teachers all love them and make a huge fuss over them. In fact, their diaries often make it to the headmaster's desk for a look! <BR>Having said all that, I, too, am like your wife. I have adamantly refused to let the kids out of school in the past for any reason except death and disease, but there are always exceptions. Obviously, going during school isn't the greatest time either, but if the school lets you and you are willing to turn the trip into an educational one, I think you should go for it. Two weeks may be the most you can get away with, though. Train trips are ideal times to get the work done, by the way!

The teachers are the key. They need to reassure your wife about the tradeoff this trip represent. They should also provide the frame for the trip to truly be an educational experience by asking your kids to prepare a special project (presentation for the other kids, a scrap book of the trip for the library, show & tell items, etc...). My best friend takes her kids to Puerto Rico for Christmas every year and they come back after the 6 January because Epiphany is a big holiday in PR. The teachers are always so amazingly understanding.

For 5 years, starting when I was 12 and my brother was 9, my parents took us out of school for 3 weeks every year to explore Europe. The memories of those trips are still vivid to my brother and I, but more importantly, they instilled a love of travel in us. AND these early travels gave us confidence in our ability to go to unknown places, figure out how to cope with day-to-day logistics in those places, appreciate and enjoy other languages/cultures/cuisines, and do what we set out to accomplish. Truly life lessons which we certainly didn't realize we were getting, but are grateful for now. <BR> <BR>From the school perspective, my mother told our teachers that we would be out of school and suggested that each of us keep a journal, which would be graded, and give a presentation to the class. We also read books in preparation for the trip and wrote reviews/reports of the books based on our actual experience in that country. For math, each of set a budget beforehand, and tracked daily expenses, and at the end of the trip, prepared a summary showing x% on food, x% on souvenirs, etc. Not to mention the exposure to history, art, architecture, etc. - a good basis in European culture, even through osmosis, let alone trips to museums (not always popular with us, but a trade-off for "fun" activities). <BR> <BR>So, I say...take the kids for as long as you can. THey'll remember the trip forever, will be educated through exposure and won't miss that much in school (that they can't do beforehand or make up later.)

What I would have given in my schooling days to actually see the history which seemed so boring on paper, but now seems so alive to me. I think if I had been given the opportunity, then I would have listened more, understood more, wanted to learn more. For example, imagine what a brilliant report they can give on the Romans, after having done a tour of the colloseum, walked around the forum, or seen Pompeii. All I can say is that I think it would bring to life what on paper looks so far away. <BR>

Taking children out of school for such a long time may teach them a lot. Unfortunately it can be seen as a selfish act. <BR> <BR>Why should the other students in their classes and their teachers suffer for the sake of your two children? <BR> <BR>Teachers time is precious enough as it is. The extra time and effort needed to cater for children needing to catch up on their syllabus can be avoided by parents simply taking advantage of the normal school breaks rather than setting their own self centered agenda. <BR> <BR>

It is so nice to see so many people supportive of taking kids to Europe. We are now running into the same problem. After traveling for years with our children, suddenly my teenager doesn't want to go. The reason? If he misses 7 or more days in a quarter, his teachers have the option of lowering his grade by one whole grade! I was shocked to learn that, simply due to absence, my A student would be a B student. I personally think that this is a lawsuit waiting for a challenge. In the meantime, we've had to plan our next trip over spring break (yuk). And we're negotiating for an exemption, but we have to submit a travel curriculum! Can you imagine? Excuse me, but my kid flunks out of school because he's seeing the David in Florence, or studying Mayan archeology in Merida? An exaggeration, of course. <BR> <BR>Anyway, Dave, we took our three boys on a Paris to Nice to Florence to Orvieto to Rome trip in March. Tell you wife that, no matter how good the school, the travel education is superior.

<BR>Dear Dave, <BR> <BR>I would let the kids negotiate with Mom. Do not interfere with their "negotiations" or side with your kids. As stated by Julius, it is not worth the potential discord between you and your wife. The "negotiation with Mom will sharpen their persuasive powers, in relation to how much they really want to stay longer. It is a very useful skill to be equipped with in life. They will also learn that in real life, there are trade offs and consequences. <BR> <BR>If this is their first time to be in France and Italy, I agree with most that they will develop a better perspective of the real world and of different cultures (USA vs. Europe) that they will never learn in the classroom. While I have not visited these two countries yet, I just came back from England. Since I was young, I have been reading the literature, arts, history, folkore, customs, etc. of Great Britain; but, I was still amazed, how different Britain is from the US in many aspects -- mass transport, urban life and planning (no parking lot sprawls, no megamalls, multiple "activities" and use in one area not the sterile "homogeneous" zoning insisted here in the US, etc.), security, crime rate, entusiastic government support for the arts and culture, squares or gardens everywhere in the city where people can take a short respite from work to have lunch or just smell the air, etc. I felt so secure there that I could be out in a new place until about midnight without any fear of being mugged. [Of course, hand guns are banned in the UK.] Also, contrary to the stereotype, many of the Brits I talked to were "more friendly" than what we were led to believe in the US -- this is consistent with my experience with the English who I worked with (or met in conferences) here in the US. <BR> <BR>London, a metropolitan area of about 10 million, was very busy but it did not have the "gridlock" traffic that a city of the same size, or even smaller, in the US would normally experience -- to think that many of the streets are even almost the equivalent of a one-lane street in major cities in the US. In Cambridge, all college students are banned from using cars (they adjusted to using bikes) and car use are also very controlled in Cambridge proper -- partly to minimize the deleterious impact of pollution on the old buildings. Of course, the high cost of gasoline (you should point this out if you happen to see a gas station there) dissuades people in Europe to be so car addicted. There are so many luxuries that we take for granted here in the US -- low gasoline cost, price of car, many goods (including many food items), bathroom in every hotel room, etc. -- that are much higher or luxury in many European countries and other parts of the world. <BR> <BR>I am sure, that for your sons, France and Italy will reflect differences from that of the US as the UK has done for me. Experiencing these differences will affect their future perspective on issues, of their environment and society. Italy and France are among the "oldest" countries that are still very advance nations in the modern world. If they have ample time to soak in the local culture, if given enough time in one place, the experience will teach them something more practical and significant -- even if there is no formal "teaching" while there. Thus, European history, arts and literature will become more real to them and they may be more motivated to learn these subjects when they are in senior high school and in college. <BR> <BR>Personally, when travelling, I prefer extended stay in "one place" to have a better grasp of the "local flavor". Thus, while I went to London on 18 July and stayed there until 9 August, most of the time was spent in London -- with just one whole day each of side trips to Cambridge, Oxford and Windsor and another one day return trip to Cambridge. Even in London, I limited the number of places I visited so that I can spend as much time in certain museums (sometimes several days visit in one museum) and devote time to wander (get lost) in non-tourist spots, having "1-2 hour" lunch in neighborhood squares, read the local paper in the "community library", watch their local tv shows (including news), etc. <BR>

Please, please, please -- no formal lessons or assignments while on vacation or even on the plane (as suggested by some earlier posts), as part of the "trade off" with their Mom. Enjoying the vacation can make the mind more receptive to other more important lessons in life that could be learned just by being with other people of different cultures. Of course, it would help if you an the wife are "renaissance" individual -- your own enthusiasm about arts, literature, architecture and other cultural activities will be "infectious". <BR> <BR>Maybe you can even buy them French-English and Italian-English dictionaries (if they do not know already) and let them ask directions. Imagine if they get interested to learn foreign languages, as a result, when they come back. <BR> <BR>Also, give them some set money once (at the beginning of the trip) budget for souvenir and miscellaneous stuff. That will be their only allowance until the end of the trip and they have to decide when and what to use their allowance for. You will never influence each of them -- no "Is that what you really want to do, son?" lectures -- but you will not let your heart melt, if at the end of the trip, there is something they have got to buy but already spent all their "luxury allowance". <BR> <BR>All these will test both your values as parents as well as your skills as teachers -- they can be done without forcing anyone to learn. <BR>

I like the idea of have diary also (it will teach them to write their impressions of the world), if they want to do it. [Do not force them to make any diary entry each day, children have very good memories, they may even do most of the writing when they come back.] Let each of them have their own camera (even cheap ones) and each will take their own pictures of the trip. It would be interesting to find what interests a child and how he looks at the world. <BR> <BR>I would be interested to include their diaries (with pictures and mementos like tickets, etc.) in a travel webpage (or they can create their own, if they want). I am interested to create a webpage with lots of "links" that will be educational for myself mainly but also for the visitor. <BR> <BR>An example is this paragraph that I intend to include in my "London diary" webpage: <BR><P>&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/index.htm"&gt;Today's Royal Family&lt;/a&gt; <BR><BR>&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/hmqueen.htm"&gt;Queen Elizabeth II&lt;/a&gt; <BR><BR>&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/wales.htm"&gt;The Prince of Wales&lt;/a&gt; (and his &lt;a href="http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/"&gt;website&lt;/a&gt;: Prince Charles is an avid "organic farmer" and actively involved in &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/wales.htm#ACTIVITIES"&gt;public activities&lt;/a&gt;, including architectural preservation); after Prince Charles, the next in line is &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/wales.htm#WILLIAM"&gt;Prince William&lt;/a&gt; -- for all his fans shown in enlarged pictures during Thanksgiving Service for The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh's &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/william.htm"&gt;Golden Wedding&lt;/a&gt; and while &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/skiing.htm"&gt;skiing&lt;/a&gt; in Whistler, Canada, March 1998. Prince William's good looks is not surprising considering her very beautiful mother &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/main/diana1.htm"&gt;Princes Diana&lt;/a&gt; shown in another picture &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana12.htm"&gt;smiling radiantly&lt;/a&gt;. More pictures of Princes Diana as &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana5.htm"&gt;Lady Spencer&lt;/a&gt; before she married, the young &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana13.htm"&gt;bride&lt;/a&gt;, as a young mother of &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana6.htm"&gt;two boys&lt;/a&gt;, shown as a very protective mother of &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana18.htm"&gt;two growing boys&lt;/a&gt;, shown also as the &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana20.htm"&gt;Princess of the World&lt;/a&gt;, who fostered many causes including the &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana21.htm"&gt;plight of children&lt;/a&gt;, international causes like helping land mine victims and ban of the manufacture and use of &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana7.htm"&gt;land mines&lt;/a&gt;. The "&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/diana.htm"&gt;Princess of the masses&lt;/a&gt;" died tragically on 31 August 1997; commerated in her &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/start.htm"&gt;official website&lt;/a&gt; and a &lt;a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/diana_one_year_on/default.stm"&gt;BBC webpage&lt;/a&gt; recording the international outpouring of grief following her death. <BR> <BR> <BR>In another section, I have these bits of raw information that I plan to incorporate as text in specific sections when I mention my trips to Windsor Castle, Tower of London, etc. in my London diary. <BR> <BR><P>&lt;FONT COLOR="#0000FF"&gt;&lt;B&gt;History and Historical maps:</B>&lt;/FONT&gt; <BR><P>UPenn (USA) 18th to 19th century &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/london.html"&gt;&lt;B&gt;Historic maps of London</B>&lt;/a&gt; and some places in Great Britain -- provides brief historical text for &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/london.html"&gt;London&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/england.html"&gt;England&lt;/a&gt; and historically famous UK cities &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/cam.html"&gt;Cambridge&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/oxford.html"&gt;Oxford&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/windsor.html"&gt;Windsor&lt;/a&gt;, etc. <BR><P>The modern-day tourist may want to compare for example the mid 19th Century &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Gifs/windsor2.html"&gt;Windsor Castle&lt;/a&gt; or the &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Gifs/lontow.html"&gt;Tower of London&lt;/a&gt; and the current structures of these landmarks to appreciate better their historical role in the British empire. <BR> <BR>[Unfortunately, the Fodor forum does not convert the "html text" above to a "normal text" with links -- the above paragraphs will be only a few lines but very rich in information that will lead to other links that the reader can explore further.] <BR> <BR>Imagine, if they will be able to do something like that in their own webpage detailing their trip to France and Italy -- that will teach them new computer skills as well as open new innovative ways to learn history, art, literature, etc. As a result, they may have a better appreciation of Notre Dame, the French Revolution, etc. in the eyes of Victor Hugo and other famous Frenchmen. Through the excesses of the French Revolution, they may learn to appreciate that it is not enough to know what you do not want but also to know what to do when you destroyed what you do not like. The rampage after the French Revolution has similarities to the current economic and political disarray (in Russia, Yoguslavia, etc.) after the fall of the "Eastern Bloc" culminating in the tearing down of the "Berlin Wall". France survived the French revolution. Thus, while it may look bleak now who knows what Russia or Eastern Europe will be a century from now. <BR> <BR>They may appreciate in Rome how the Roman papacy greatly influenced the fate of the world. Henry VIII may never have established the Anglican Church. Mary Queen of Scots may not have been executed and we would not have known Queen Elizabeth I. Even Mary Queen of Scots, might not have been a queen, if only the first wife of Henry VIII bore him a son. Of course, if some earlier English kings were not killed in battles during the "holy war" crusades to retake Jerusalem then we would not had Henry VIII to begin with. <BR> <BR>Academic exercise on possibilities -- how a single person or how accidents beyond our control can influence the world. The individual matters, chance matters. <BR> <BR>If they can have this underst

[sorry, the last was truncated...] <BR> <BR>If they can have this understanding of history and appreciation of other disciplines (arts, literature, music, etc.), they will become true "renaissance boys" in the age of specialization. Also, if they are interesting writers, they will be able to educate others too who will visit their webpages. <BR> <BR> <BR>Anyway, just some ideas. Learning does not have to be "painful". <BR> <BR> <BR>CGC -- 990824

Dump the wife and take the kids. Just joking. When my son was young we took him out of school on several occasions but only with the approval of his teachers and with all of the homework he would have missed. On some trips, with the help of adults setting near him he would have all of his work completed before landing. <BR>