Robert2533

Barclay's Bank, Chase and Bank of America, as well as Amex, have been sending out pin and chip replacement cards since late 2014. Some were chip and sign, but most are now pin and chip, including ATM/Debit cards. Many small banks and credit unions have yet to make the change because of the expense.

Barclay's, Chase, BofA and AMEX do not charge conversion/foreign transaction fees on their platinum/signature cards. And again, AMEX is the only one that does not allow DCC.

kraines

Well, I have another very good reason not to rely on a credit card from a small credit union. On 3 separate trips, I along with others attempted to withdraw money and use a debit/credit card from a small credit union that is very well known and used by many where we live. The first trip, access was denied to me and to my sister in law when we attempted to withdraw money; it also would not let us charge anything. Fortunately, I had a debit/credit card with a bank and was able to withdraw money and charge. We ended up calling the small credit company and they kept telling us that it would work, but it never did. I ended up withdrawing money for my sister in law so she could have cash. On two subsequent trips after that, with other people, I advised them as to the issue with the small credit union cards. They took them anyway and they did not work for them, either. Fortunately for them, they had debit/credit cards with a larger bank and were able to function. Just an fyi.....I stick to the larger bank cards now.

Michael

I have used my SF Federal Credit Union ATM and credit cards for years in Mexico and in Europe with no problems. Twice the credit card was denied in NYC--the second time was my error--after which I have never forgotten to tell them when we are leaving the SF bay area.

Perhaps naming the credit union might be of some use in this instance since it appears to be a problem specific to that credit union.

elberko

My credit union is limited to people living in my county in PA, so probably pretty small. I have had no issues using the credit card or ATM card they issue in Europe or South America. So it might not be small size that's the issue.

StCirq

DCC is alive and well in Bordeaux, too, as I discovered when we were there a few weeks ago and went to withdraw euros from a distributeur. They "offered" me the chance to be charged in dollars, even though I was using my Carte Bleu from my French bank account at the Banque Postale. Huh? If the bank had actually been open, I would have gone in and had a conversation with someone about this, but it was mid-day and it was closed.

ekc

So just to clarify, I am always to decline DCC and choose EUROS, correct? Although I travel to Italy twice a year and use ATM's, I do not recall seeing this option previously.

greg

ekc,
Yes, you "decline" DCC. However, the issue here is whether is it presented as a declinable "option". The merchant and ATM machines have been getting deceptive in this area in some countries and they don't always present DCC as an option. I had a store in Florence this year asking me to just "sign" the slip. Lo and behold, it had verbiage stating I was offered on option to be charged in dollars - a lie and that I have accepted the offer - another lie.

xyz123

kja...it was not my intent to be rude. You tried to resolve the issue in effect informally with your credit union. Many institutions will simply credit the difference and not be bothered with chargebacks. But you are entitled to formally protest the charge and your credit union will have to institute chargeback proceedings through the network (visa or mc depending). Many people just don't think it's worth pursuing it for small amounts but that is why (not accusing you per se) this cancer of dcc is metastasizing through the travelling world. Writing on the charge slip local option not offered, crossing out the amount in your currency and crossing out the statement you accept the conversion as final will help in this matter; it might also scare off the scum perpetrating this scam. If this is pulled on me, that is what I do. Under no circumstances will I try to resolve the issue by paying cash. What I have found is many of the larger banks, such as JP Morgan Chase, do not wish to be bothered with chargebacks and simply credit the difference if it is relatively small to be done with it. Like I say, if more people pursued it, perhaps we can put an end to this scam.

There is another piece of information that is incorrect in the thread. None of the big US banks are issuing chip and pin preferred cards. 99.9% of cards being issued in the USA are chip and signature preferred. Many, such as some of the Barclay Bank cards, have pins as a fall back if signature are not accepted but many, such as the cards issued by JP Morgan Chase, do not and will not for the foreseeable future. As of today, the only 2 institutions where you can get a pin preferred chip card are UNFCU and First Tech FCU. Several others do issue pin preferred cards but either membership is not open to the public at large (for example Harvard FCU) or have stopped accepting new applications (Diners Club) from Americans. A bank in upstate New York has announced plans to introduce true chip and pin cards but two days after the announcement, it was bought out by another bank so there is some questions whether they will actually begin issuing such cards.

That is the latest information that is available. Make up your own mind of what you wish to do (but I will say, if it were me, I would file a formal protest. Unfortunately, the last time I had this happen to me, my bank refused to do the chargeback but simply credited the difference).

ekc

Thanks for the clarification Greg. I will start reviewing transactions more closely!

Sarastro

<i> None of the big US banks are issuing chip and pin preferred cards. </i>

This is correct. Just because a card is issued with a PIN, and virtually all are, does not mean it is a chip & PIN card. Old magnetic strip cards were issued with PINs.

Chip & PIN means that <i>the default transaction, defined as a purchase from a manned location, will never require a signature</i>. You will always be asked for a PIN to complete the transaction.

Walmart is one of the very few retailers, in the USA, that can process EMV or chip & PIN transactions. When making purchases, above the no Card verification limit (CVM) typically around $50, a simple PIN entry is all that is required to complete your purchase.

With chip & signature cards, the PIN is only used at unmanned locations, such as kiosks and unmanned fuel pumps. There are two types of chip & signature cards; those with PINs burned into the chip (known as off line PINs) and those with flexible PINs which are verified on line (known as on line PINs). Purchases made at locations without on line verification capability, such as at unmanned gas station in France, will be rejected. Only chip & signature cards with off line PINs will be accepted at these locations. That is why some card holders can purchase gas on French roadways virtually anywhere and others cannot.

All of these options are determined by the card issuing bank. Most of the card issuers offering the greatest flexibility to the user are small banks and credit unions. These have the lowest fees and the most widely accepted cards.

kja

@ Sarastro -- I honestly don't remember if I called Visa directly! I have a vague recollection of calling Visa and being told to contact the card issuer, but I came down with a nasty illness upon my return, and spent several weeks in a complete daze. So I can't swear that my recollection is accurate.

@ xyz123 -- I did not find YOUR comments rude and am sorry if that's what I unintentionally communicated. (I can see that the paragraph break confused my message -- sorry!) I appreciate the patient advice you give on this board, time and time again.

Like so many others, I decided to just drop it, because the cost was nominal. But that is, as so many of you note, what makes these charges so insidious -- they are generally small enough that people don't protest! So even though I no longer have any of the documentation, I might just give it a go.

And thanks to both of you for confirming what I had come to understand -- true CHIP and PINs -- of the type Sarastro calls "off line" PINs -- are hard to find in the U.S.!

Betsy

Interesting thread. On our recent (October) trip to Spain and Greece we were always asked politely whether we preferred to be charged in Euro or USD. Never a hassle to request Euro.

yestravel

In the past I was often asked and then they did the charge as I requested. One time I didn't notice and was not asked. When I looked at the credit slip I insisted they reverse the charge and do it properly. It took several people to figure that out. As the years go by, DCC seems to become more and more common. I often wonder when it will become the standard?

kja

@ yestravel -- that's been my experience, too. And even on my trip to Spain this past May, most people -- all but two, to be precise! -- asked politely and then honored my wish. In Switzerland in 2013, I was often asked and my wish was always granted -- and many people there actually said, "you don't want to be charged in U.S. dollars, do you?" In France in 2011, I don't remember it ever being an issue, as in, I don't even remember being asked, although I could easily have forgotten if I was -- it was a non-issue. I suspect that those days are long behind us!

Sarastro

<i>true CHIP and PINs -- of the type Sarastro calls "off line" PINs -- are hard to find in the U.S.!</i>

The banks issuing true chip & PIN cards are few and their cards are not aways the lowest fee cards. A few examples would be, and (these are only examples):

BMO/Diners Club
https://www.dinersclubus.com/home

Travelex
http://www.travelex.com/US/Products/Cash-Passport/

UNFCU/Visa
https://www.unfcu.org/product.aspx?id=385


There are a number of institutions issuing chip & signature cards with off-line PINs:

Andrews FCU/GlobeTrek Rewards (no annual fee, no foreign transaction fees)
https://tinyurl.com/opxm4ex

Barclaycard/MC World Elite
http://www.barclaycardarrival.com/

Wells Fargo - Propel World AMEX/Platinum Visa/By Invitation Visa
https://tinyurl.com/nzze556

PenFed - Gold Visa/Promise Visa/Cash Rewards Visa (no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee)
https://www.penfed.org/rewards-cards/


But for me, the very best card available is the PenFed Defender Visa. It offers an off-line PIN, no annual fee, no foreign transaction or currency conversion fees, and pays you 1½% cash back each month on all of your purchases, including those made while traveling outside of the USA. No other card to my knowledge pays cash back on foreign purchases.

However, you must be a veteran to qualify:
https://www.penfed.org/defender-visa-signature/

xyz123

BMO is no longer accepting applications from Americans.

UNFCU has a 1% foreign transaction fee on purchases made on its card which has no annual fee. They also offer cards without a foreign transaction fee but those cards have annual fees.

The reality is that the card networks have done a good job in ending the discrimination some merchants mistakenly had against signature cards. Chip and signature card issued by US banks, despite what some naysayers claim, work virtually everywhere in Europe today. Sometimes, there is a bit of an inconvenience. For example, some UK chains are converting some check outs to self service (example Boots or Tesco). The problem comes in when you use a chip and signature card. The transaction will not be completed and the dreaded message seek assistance will flash. A store employee will come over when they get off their rear ends (I once had to wait close to 5 minutes), enters a code, generates a signature slip, never checks the signature and the transaction is completed. No need for that. The UK merchant agreement does allow merchants to waive signatures for amounts under £30; almost none do. We all know and understand signatures do not add one iota of security and loss due to fraud on small purchases is not all that great. Adopting that attitude of not bothering with signatures for small purchases would speed things up immensely. This is now a common practice in the United States. Even when signaturess are asked for, it is rare in the United States today for clerks to even bother looking at them.

Chip and signature cards are every bit as secure as chip and pin cards except if the actual card is lost or stolen. Statistics show this is not a major contributor to card is present fraud. In any event, in the USA and almost everywhere else, consumers have zero liability for fraud. Inconvenient to a small degree yes but no lasting effects if your card is hacked.

Even with kiosks, new regulations prohibit merchants using kiosks from not honoring a card without an offline pin. It is probably not 100% effective but close to as many kiosks that once rejected non pin cards now take them.

Let me make it clear. For the sake of uniformity, I would have preferred pins but there are some valid reasons the US banks have not embraced pins. However the concern that some push that chip and signature cards are useless is nonsensical. They will work 99.9% of the time just as well as chip and pin.

xyz123

Just one further thought on this. Your most important consideration when choosing a credit card for foreign travel is to make sure you have a card with no foreign transaction fee. Bear in mind that if your card has a foreign transaction fee, contrary to what some of the merchants may claim when trying to push dcc on you, you get nailed for that fee anyway as the transaction is taking place outside your home country. It is not a currency conversion fee.

thursdaysd

" No other card to my knowledge pays cash back on foreign purchases."

My Capital One Platinum MC and Visa cards have no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee, and 1% cashback on all purchases, including foreign. Unfortunately the new chipped card they just mailed me does NOT have a PIN. I mostly use them abroad just for hotels these days.

xyz123 - what proof do you have that Chip and Signature - as opposed to Chip and Signature Preferred - cards will work in unattended kiosks?

For the record I took a PenFed card, Chip and Signature Preferred but with PIN - to Europe this year. It worked everywhere, but it was embarrassing to hold up the line in a crowded grocery store because I had to sign while everyone else just typed in a PIN. In the very popular Vasa museum in Stockholm there was a separate line for people with Chip and PIN cards.

chartley

To bring this thread back to its starting point, don't forget that with a proper chip & pin system, no transaction is completed until you have entered your pin. If you are passed the terminal and don't like what's on the screen, refuse to enter your pin. With chip and signature, or with a swipe card, the transaction is done before you sign.

If you take your credit card overseas and use it to pay for an item in a foreign currency, then there are additional costs involved. You either pay those costs yourself personally, or they are born by the bank's customers in general. They are not met by a donation from the bank's profits.

Similarly, if your bank and your country deliberately adopt an insecure system like chip and signature, then the costs of any additional fraudulent use will be born by the bank's customers. Just as the points or other rewards ultimately result in higher prices at retailers, etc.

You don't get owt for nowt. Somehow, somewhere, you will pay.

xyz123

Proof? Very simple. For years, the kiosks at CDG airport when I take the RER to Gare du nord only took credit cards with a pin. Last June, when I arrived at CDG, I used the kiosk and the transaction was completed with no cvm. That is proof. I'm not saying all kiosks comply with the regs but let's put it this way. There is a thread on flyer talk devoted to this topic and it is now close to 1,000 pages long and at its inception, there was complaints galore regarding this; mostly dealing with magnetic strip cards. Report after report there from folks say the chip and signature cards being issued by US banks surprisingly work. I can only report on what the regulations say. If merchants choose to ignore them, that's something we can't do anything about. But again, I am only the messenger. Please don't shoot the messenger. This is simply the way it is, for bet£ter or for worse.

While it would be preferable to have a pin preferred card, and I do have the UNFCU annual fee free card just in case, and do use it sometimes when I'm in London and don't want to be bothered with waiting for some clerk at a self service machine for a £2 charge, it is far down on my list of which cards to use. No foreign transaction fees come first and I have several cards which don't have this rip off fee.