Hi, <BR> <BR>Could someone (pretty) please tell me something nice about Dundee in Scotland? I'm from Australia and will be going there to work at the university there in a couple of months. I chose Dundee rather than another job in England as I plan to do as much travelling as possible and it seemed a good base to see the various parts of Scotland. <BR> <BR>However, recently I've talked to some people from Scotland and on the forum here I've seen Dundee described as the armpit of the world (high narcotics problem etc). Is it all bad or are there any decent facets of the city as I'm starting to worry I've made a big mistake? What exactly is it about Dundee that makes it so bad? Also I've had several suggestions that I should live across the Tay, or in Broughty ferry or elsewhere (Perth?) - does anyone think this would the best option? <BR> <BR>Many thanks to anyone who could respond and make me feel better about this. <BR> <BR>Felicity

This may not make you feel any better, but it will bring your post back on to the first page. The TimeOut Edinburgh Guide starts its short section on Dundee thus: "Dundonians call it the City of Apathy..." and later says, "The key to enjoying Dundee...is keeping an open mind." <BR> <BR>Good luck.

As the author of the “armpit of the universe” remark- tho not claiming it as original- I can’t help but comment further. <BR> <BR>Lonely Planet says “This grey city is an unfortunate example of the worst of 1960s and 70s town planning- ugly blocks of flats and office buildings joined by unsightly concrete walkways.” <BR> <BR>“Despite the feeling of desolation here, the vigour that remains in the city is in the hearts of Dundonians who are among the friendliest, most welcoming and most entertaining you’ll met anywhere in the country.” <BR> <BR>You have to understand a bit about the history of the place. 200 years ago, barely there. Then in the 19th century it acquired, jute jam and journalism (as we were taught in primary school) and whaling, which we weren’t. It also acquired a huge influx of Irish Catholics fleeing the famine, so by the end of the second world war, you had a very working class city, with obsolescent industry, and the worst newspapers in the world. There followed lots of strikes right up till Thatcher throttled the place to death in the early 80s. <BR> <BR>Now its true heart is reviving. There are two Universities, lots of young people and nightclubs and pubs. It’s got a lovely location (if you can see it past the smoke stacks) and a delightful sense of self-abusive humour. I have 2 friends who think it’s the greatest place in the world <BR> <BR>If you’re going to work in the university, stay in the city. You will survive the lack of decent restaurants <BR>and benefit from the vibrancy. It IS a good base to see Scotland from. Don't go to the middle class places unless you can't bear the plebs <BR> <BR>Which uni? to teach what? maybe I can find you some friendly pals to make the transition easier (and translate!)

Thanks Sheila for your comments - they make me feel better about my decision. I had read the Lonely Planet comments when trying to decide to go to Dundee and I'll take friendly people over an attractive city any day. However when I heard Dundee described as the "armpit of the Universe" twice in as many days I was starting to wonder what the heck was wrong with Dundee! <BR> <BR>I will be working at the University of Dundee. I'll be a research scientist in the School of life sciences there (not teaching - I'm just a lowly technician....). <BR>Any help when I'm there will be gratefully received. One thing I've heard from quite a few sources is that the local accent can be difficult to understand so a translator could indeed be very handy! <BR> <BR>Thanks <BR> <BR>Felicity <BR> <BR>

IMO some of the best pubs in Scotland are to be found in Broughty Ferry, next to Dundee. Good beer, good folks. After a few pints you'll understand the locals just fine.

There's a good honda garage in broughty ferry. Dundee has some shops, the train doesnt take long to get to glasgow or edinburgh, thats three things. <BR> <BR>This young lad working in McD's in Victoria, BC spotted my accent and told me he was going to visit dundee later in the year as that was where his grandfather was from - I had to do it, I had to lie and say he would have a great time. <BR> <BR>Spent a week there on a course a few years back, billeted in Castle Greyskull, this wierd hotel on a backstreet. The maid would knock on the door of your room and walk in, usually to find me wearing only a smile, then amzingly say 'oh I'm in to clean your room, son, dont mind me'. I didn't after the third time it happened. <BR> <BR>Concrete utopuia it is not, concrete hell it is. When i did civil engineering at university, Dundee was always the example of 'How not to do it Part 17' or whatever. A couple of years back I read that they had ringed a housing estate with barbed wire to keep those people that lived there in'. A truly awful place. City of discovery - true but the only thing you tend to discover is that your home isn't the worst place in the world. Truly awful, Felicity.

Gee Tony, don't hold back...tell me how you really feel <BR>Okay, so here's a question for you (or any one else). Everyone says how awful Dundee is. Apart from how awful it looks - what specifically is so bad about Dundee - astronomically high crime rates, looting and pillaging, gun battles in High street??, 'cause that's the image I get from the what you've written. <BR>Since it is apparently so bad, any suggestions as to how to survive a year in Dundee ?(and no, going somewhere else is not an option!) <BR>What places nearby are nice/worth a visit - I've heard one of the best things about Dundee is the ease of getting out of the place - the floor is open for comments (St Andrews, the Angus glens, Perth, Glamis castle???) <BR>(By the way, thanks Tony for the honesty better to have some prior warning I suppose.) <BR> <BR>

I'm hardly an expert, having spent one whole day in Dundee, but I found it much less bad than I'd been led to believe (damning with faint praise?). They really do seem to be trying, and I did find signs of the revival that Sheila mentioned. As a good little tourist, I was there mostly to see the Discovery (Scott's ship from his first Antarctic voyage) and the Verdant Works (very interesting museum in old jute mill), so I didn't see the satellite housing estates, etc. To me, the worst thing was the godawful mess they made putting the motorways through town. <BR> <BR>A number of the old Victorian textile mills have been converted into housing, and despite what people may think about the social inequities of gentrification, that seems better than tearing them down. Similarly with the new contemporary arts centre -- it's been criticized as pandering to yuppies, but it also has added some cultural life. <BR> <BR>I know you shouldn't generalize about people, but the Dundonians I met (including the proprietors of my B&B in Perth, whom I got to know fairly well as they aided me in my battle with KLM-UK over lost luggage) really were friendly, feisty, and funny.

Felicity- nowhere could be as bad as the press Dundee gets. <BR>Apart from how awful it looks - what specifically is so bad about Dundee - astronomically high crime rates,?- high; not that high. <BR>looting and pillaging?-not recently <BR>gun battles in High street???- not recently <BR>The bottom line is ...poverty. In 1986, I went on a Sunday to 8am Mass in the only Catholic Church I knew in Dundee. I'd been to a wedding there once. Working class area. I sat in the back pew, like you do, and when the priest came in and we all stood up, i discovered I was the tallest person in the church. I'm 5' 7". It's poverty- years of poor diets, and hard work in a forbidding physical environment <BR> <BR>Since it is apparently so bad, any suggestions as to how to survive a year in Dundee ?- answer- don't liten to the whingers. Make friends, visit the countryside, go to football matches and eat the pies (Wallace's,of course) <BR> <BR>What places nearby are nice/worth a visit (St Andrews, the Angus glens, Perth, Glamis castle???)- apart from these, beaches golfcourses, sailing, castles, skiing, Edinburgh, mountains, the list is as endless as you want to make it. <BR>

Good cakes though!

Sheila and others, <BR> <BR>Thanks once again for the advice. I'm sure I'll find both good and bad in Dundee, as you can say about any other place in the world. <BR> <BR>I'm planning on having a good time regardless. Can't wait to see for myself! <BR> <BR>Felicity