Jason

For Jack, who asked about Italy -<BR><BR>My coworker, who is US-born, acquired his first Italian passport at age 28. He says it is possible to obtain Italian citizenship through an Italian-born parent or even grandparent, but the catch is that Italy allows dual citizenship only by birth, not by naturalisation. He had to prove, in demonstrating his citizenship, that his Italian-born grandfather was still a citizen of Italy when his father was born, AND that his father did not acquire a subsequent nationality before my co-worker was born.<BR><BR>Luckily for him, the grandfather never did become a US citizen, and his father still had his grandfather's last Italian passport, valid when the grandfather died.<BR><BR>Check embassy or consulate of Italy in your closest city (they may have a website) for more information and application forms for the Italian passport. If you can prove you are entitled to It citizenship by birth (one of your parents was an Italian citizen when you were born), it's just a matter of paperwork to get the passport - my colleague said it took about 4 months.

Alec

Re Italian Nationality<BR><BR>I think all males under certain age (45?) who become Italian citizens are liable for conscription. It may not survive much longer as the government is trying to abolish compulsory military service but it's still a requirement, even for dual nationals who want to live in Italy. You can opt to do voluntary work instead if you are a conscientious objector.

germany too

What Jason said about Italy is pretty much the case for Germany too. I have both U.S. and German. Since I was born in the States, i get the american. And since my dad was born in germany and was still german when i was born i get the german passport. They call it blutrecht (blood right). it's perfectly legal to have both in both countries. In the u.s. you cannot get naturalized to obtain another passport, but if it's through parentage it's ok. It even says so in the U.S. passport itself.

Mohsen

Is there any chance for Egyptian to apply for dual citizenship? I live in the US for 12 years

francesca

Just chipping in to dispell a gigantic myth about US laws regarding citizenship. The US will *not* force you to give up your citizenship if you acquire another passport, nor will your kids have to choose at 18 or any other age. <BR>The US may not &quot;recognize&quot; another nationality but they will not expect you to forfeit your American citizenship. It is actually very hard to give up your US citizenship, even if you wanted to, the US would resist!<BR><BR>I recently acquired French nationality. I kept my US passport. The US govt couldn't care less. <BR>The key issue is transmitting your nationality to your children and their children, esp. if you live outside the US. Your kids will have it if you are American, but there are steps to go through to get them a passport if they are born abroad. Their ability to transmit US nationality to *their* children is a more delicate area and one in which legislation has recently changed. Your US Embassy can help with this if you are abroad. <BR>Good luck.

inge

My kids have triple citizenhip (mine, their fathers, and US because that's where they were born). Neither of the three countries asks them to give up their citizenship when they turn 18.

Ann

First off, you don't need the death certificates (call the Irish Embassy in DC if you want to hear it from them).<BR><BR>Secondly, you'd better hurry up. The regulations are changing as of Nov. 29, and as of then you will not be able to apply under the Foreign Births Registry category.

Richard

Francesca, formally, the US does care if its citizens aquire another passport (and I'm not talking about kids who obtain citizenship through their parents), but they typically don't do anything about it.<BR><BR>However, if someone holding more than one passport gets into a situation overseas where they require the assistance of the US embassy, the embassy has and will say that they won't handle it, and that the person will have to go to the embassy of their other passport. Obviously, this isn't something that happens to a large percentage of people, but it's always good to know where you stand.

StCirq

Ann: The deadline of November 29 of this year to file with the Irish Embassy applies only to persons applying for citizenship through an Irish spouse, not through parents or grandparents. That's not the case for the person who posted here.<BR><BR>Also, I am holding in my hand the documents I received a month ago from the Irish embassy, which detail, among other things, the requirements for obtaining citizenship through a grandparent. It says &quot;for the grandparent three documents are required in normal circumstances: A.1. The full, long form Irish birth certificate. A.2. The marriage license/certificate (civil or state-issued). A.3. If the grandparent is deceased, the death certificate; if living, a current official photo I.D. (driving licence, passport).&quot;<BR>

Ian

As a side note. . .<BR><BR>The INS (increasingly) requires that all US citizens travel into the country using their US passport.<BR><BR>I just rec'd my 1st US passport. I was born in US but moved to Canada at an early age &amp; have travelled with a Canadian passport for 20 years.<BR><BR>When I applied for the passport (and when travelling previously) the main concern from the INS was always whether I had ever relinquished my US citizenship, thru declaration or draft dodging etc.<BR><BR>Canada &amp; the United States do have a formal dual citizenship policy.

Siobhan

I have dual citizenship with Ireland and posses 2 passports. From my understanding I believe that if you enter a country on a certain passport lets say Irish and you have trouble...the Irish embassy will handle the matter even though you are a U.S. citizen. The passport you use upon entry dictates nationality.<BR><BR>Personally I only use my U.S. passport when entering the U.S. as it's required if you are a citizen. I find it much easier to travel on my Irish one and I seem to get stopped less at customs/immigration in other countries. No one has a beef with the Irish and it's great for travelling.<BR><BR>People who have aproblem with us having dual citizenship obivously do not realise that we still have links with our parents birthplace and may even have lived in two countries as well. I am no less Patriotic because of this. I was raised as American but always aware of my culture and relations and country my parents are from.

Erica

I'm overwhelmed!<BR><BR>Due to an unexpected serious illness in my family, I've been unable to use a computer since I posted this question.<BR><BR>I'm amazed at the response. I thank you so much!<BR><BR>Can't wait to explore all the suggestions you offered.<BR><BR>Thanks again!<BR><BR>Erica

Ann

Erica-I apologize for my misinformation. Didn't realize that the paperwork regarding grandparents were different for those applying by descent (you) and those applying through their spouse (me). Still don't understand, though, why they want a death certificate.<BR><BR>I really should just sit in a corner and shut up.

Clifton

I'm topping this in the hopes that it might catch St. Cirq's attention.

That original deadline set by the Irish gov't was extended and is still in effect. Because of this, my wife and I are attempting to wade through the same procedures. She's a dual citizen of Australia and Ireland and we're attempting to do the same for me (US citizen) as you did for your husband.

We've read all the stipulations and are just getting started. What I'm most leary of are those statements about the one level of government verifying the seal of the level below it (state verifies county seal, etc). How in the world did you all pull that off? Or did it come out ok?

Thanks,
Cliff

StCirq

Hi, Cliff:

Well, how's this for a two-years-later update? The Irish Embassy here in DC LOST about half of our extensive paperwork, and the guy handling our case is no longer there (from recent conversations with embassy personnel, I get the impression he was let go for incompetence). So we are now piecing together, once again, some of the elements of our applications (which are dual - one for my husband, which has to be done through Dublin, and one for my kids, which can be handled here in DC). I just drove about 50 miles the other day to get new photos signed. They had to be signed by the same notary who signed the ones we originally submitted (which were among the items lost), and he had moved to another bank. It's ridiculous!

Before I get going with a full blown rant here, I'm not sure I can answer your question. I don't remember any wording related to one level of government verifying the seal of the level below. Where did you find that language? I've got a stack of folders here on my desk related to this topic, so I'm sure I can find it, but it certainly doesn't seem to have figured into any of the stuff we've had to go through at this point.

Statia

I can certainly sympathize with both of you. I had the runaround for quite awhile with getting my dual EU citizenship, but thankfully everything turned out ok in the end.

Hang in there Clifton and StCirg...it WILL come thru eventually. Be sure to do a lot of internet research, as well.

Clifton

Wow, I wasn't expecting that it would catch your attention as fast as it did. I just happen to find the thread when I was looking for some unrelated visa information, but it caught my eye.

It's amazing that after these two years, you're still in progress. At least forward is good, judging by your feedback. Ah well, off we go as well.

This was the bit from the Ireland Embassy website I was referring to. Bureaucracy in all its dazzling glory, this.

From http://www.irelandemb.org/post.html
<i>The applicant's declaration of acceptance of Irish citizenship and the affidavit made by the Irish citizen spouse must both be completed at the same time before a notary public. The applicant and the spouse must either be personally known to the notary or introduced by someone who knows them both. The notary public should delete the section of the statement of identity which does not apply. The notary public must also sign and date the reverse of the photographs being submitted as well as the reverse of both the applicant's declarations and the affidavits of the Irish spouse. The notary public?s signature must be authenticated by the Clerk of Court of the county in which the notary?s commission was granted. The seal of the County Clerk must then be authenticated by the Secretary of State of the appropriate state.</i>

I take it this wasn't an initial requirement or they weren't as specificly demanding as they seem in the above text. The Secretary of State? I can't help thinking that it's just got to be that the seal (the actual device) used has be subject to all those verifications, not that you have to carry your notarized documents back throught the system to the Secretary of State. lol. Gulp.

You're definitely fortunate to live in DC, at least in terms of this process! Out here in the hinterland (Memphis), we're tackling by email and phone. Oh, boy... but as Statia says, I guess we'll get there.

A bit o'luck to all of us.

Neil_Oz

Further to Ira's explanation of the Mormon interest in genealogy - Erica, the LDS records are a useful resource, but they're by no means complete or infallible. They suffer from the usual problems, including inaccurate transcriptions from semi-legible handwritten sources and variable name spellings, often as a result of a clergyman or official recording the name of an illiterate registrant, immigrant etc. and having to take a best guess at the spelling. As a small example, I had the name of one of my Irish ancestors spelt as &quot;Smith&quot; (it was Smyth, presumably pronounced &quot;Smith&quot and her place of birth as &quot;Nice&quot; (it was Naas, Co. Kildare, pronounced &quot;Nayce&quot - both based on a passenger manifest for the voyage from Liverpool to Sydney in 1842. A more extreme case was that of an English ancestor whose name mutated into no less than 14 different spellings after his (compulsory) migration to Australia.

Until civil birth, deaths &amp; marriages registrations came into force church records were it, so you have to hope your forebears were religious (again, one of mine came from a &quot;godless&quot; coal mining community and was never baptised - result, no record of birth at all).

Family history research is fraught with these and other potential blockers - you need time and persistence. If you subscribe to Rootsweb lists for the counties/cities in question you can get a lot of helpful information from other researchers. A search will also reveal a host of online record sources, some free, some by subscription. There are also agents in many countries who will carry out searches for you for a fee. Good luck - if nothing else you might gain a sometimes frustrating but fascinating hobby.

StCirq

Cliff: That Secretary of State nonsense was not a requirement when we began the process, and I hope to God it hasn't become one since! I'm having enough trouble resurrecting all the items the embassy lost when Mr. O'Donnell resigned.

The business about the signing and notarizing of the photos was, indeed, one of the things I had to redo a week or so ago. Now I've got to gather together &quot;5-7&quot; pieces of mail that are addressed to both my husband and me (sounds easy, but we have different last names and not that many things come to both of us - want to write us a letter?

They also asked repeatedly for &quot;an expanded marriage license,&quot; which they described as a marriage license that not only has our names on it, but the names of our parents as well, and a seal of the state (district) we were married in. Well, DC, which is where we were married, doesn't DO &quot;expanded marriage licenses,&quot; so they eventually dropped that requirement.
I must tell you that I've gotten different requirements from three different people I've been in touch with at the Irish Embassy over the past few weeks. I'm not at all convinced the right hand knows what the left is doing.
Just keep calling them so your name becomes familiar to them. And keep sending documentation - ANY documentation - and I suspect eventually you'll tame the beast.
You'll probably need a few pints of Guiness to get through it, though

Clifton

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance.. eh?

I like the approach though. Wear them down before they can wear you down. We'll do that. I just checked and our marriage license (the original, from Missouri) doesn't have places for parents names either. Yet another thing to wrangle over. I think they just do this as the Irish love a good debate.

LOL. Like I wasn't going to have the Guinness anyway! We'll launch all this stuff at them as soon as we can and get the ball rolling, one way or the other. Appreciate the insights! Will let you know if we discover any hidden passageways or trap doors.