I will take sabbatical from work [November 2004- January 2005]and will spend 4weeks of the time studying German. I am torn between taking the language course in Munich vs. Dresden.

I have travelled quite frequently to Germany but have never visited the former east --- hence the allure of Dresden. However, I know Muenchen would be great-- plus from there I could easily day-trip to Austria and take petit forays into Italy.

I will have a 5 country rail pass so I could do quite a bit of train-hopping.

Bottom-line: Dresden vs. Munich -- Which would you choose for a 4week stay/launch point for side trips?

Your opinions/advice would be appreciated.

Danke!

well, if you like Germany you like Germany. Personally it was the only country in Europe I've been to that I didnt like, but I've been to both Munich and Dresden. For a 4 week stay, there's def more to do/see in Munich. It's a much larger city in General, but Dresden is BEAUTIFUL. It's just pretty small. Depends if you like a small, quaint, romantic city or a larger, more cosmopolitan one (although still european). good luck! Did you consider Berlin? That's an awesome city

Wow, what a toughy. Like the previous poster I too like them both. A lot of it really is do you want a big city or a smaller town?

Rail trips out of Munich will be more convenient with more direct routes. Though Dresden wouldn't be that bad with a change in Leipzig to continue on. Prague is easy from Dresden too.

Now we get to a sticky part. The Saxony accent in Dresden is not well received by a lot of German speakers. I don't want to insult anyone but from what I gather it's rather akin to the way people from the north in the US will make fun of a southern drawl.

My friends who lived in Leipzig for 2 years had a struggle. Their tutors were always making them use "high" German while in the streets all they heard was the Saxony accent.

Maybe our resident Dresden expert Ingo can help. Ingo how "thick" is the Saxony accent in Dresden? Would it make much of a difference to a student?

You'll have a wonderful time. I wish you great success with your study no matter what you choose.

Hi there, Thanks for your response! Yes did consider Berlin -- unfortunately the language course is not available in Berlin during my sabbatical. Part II - forgot mention Berlin was added inducement for taking the language course in Dresden, since it just a hop, skip jump away. I don't guess it matters in the end, since I can always spend the weekends elsewhere. Also, I will have two weeks at the end of the course to travel anywhere I'd like --- I'm thinking Switzerland and the Lake District o' Italy.

Thanks again for the analysis.

P.S. Just so you know, Germany is not my favorite either --- it's just the most comfortable because I have been so often.

I am intrigued by the opinions expressed by above writers who express somewhat negative feelings about Germany. What is it about life in Germany that bothers you? Perhaps I have similar unease but have difficulty expressing it. Help me, please.

I'm curious USNR too. I've never had any negative feelings or reticence about Germany. I have a hard time understanding why people have a poor impression of the country.

I first visited in '98 when friends lived there for 2 years. I went back in '99 and '00 each time for 2 weeks.

I think Germany is wonderful. I like the people. I like the climate. I like everything about it. I think the hearty fried schnitzels are amazing. I was stunned and loved the lard with cracklin's spread I encountered in Nuremberg. It reminds me of Midwest meat & potatoes food.

To me Berlin is an amazing city. It's also one of the most underrated in former Western Europe today.

I think overall Germany is very 2nd tier for European travel. Look at the posts. It's all UK, Italy, France and Ireland. Some Spain, a little Portugal then Germany and the rest of Europe.

Of course I have to admit France is my current infatuation. But I know why. I had 5 years of French in high school and college. If only I could have taken the German in high school I planned before my parents moved me to the countryside, I'd have been a "Germany-phile."

Is that a word like anglophile, francophile and italophile?

I love Germany and have been to both cities. My choice would be Dresden. Munich is very nice but you have been there. Dresden is small so you can study and Berlin is just 2 hours to the north and Prague is just 2 to 2 1/4 hours to the south. Poland is not far away. You can discover some wonderful areas of Germany and other old eastern countries.

Just one comment on the accent issue brought up here:

Yes, the Saxon accent prevalent in Dresden is noticeable and at least smiled upon a bit in other, predominantely the Western and Northern parts of Germany. I don't think that it will make a difference for a language course. Thanks (?) to TV and Radio, German by today is a pretty standardized language and especially for a language course they will employ speakers with hardly any accent.
What strikes me funny is that the accent issue has so far only been brought up for Dresden, as if in Munich this needs not to be considered! In fact Bavaria has most probably the most widely spread accent that at times is rather incomprehendable to anyone not coming from the region. Probably this results from people from out of state always travelling to Bavaria and thinking that that's what's Germany like, I don't know. But again I don't think that you would encounter any problems during the course.
One more consideration: If you are a skier, you might enjoy Munich a bit more in December and January due to its proximity to some good Austrian ski resorts.

twinokur: yes, please tell us, what is it about Germany that made it the "only country you didn't like"?

I've travelled extensively in Europe, and while I love France, I think there is more fun to be had in Germany, and the towns are more picture-book pretty as against the laid-back sleepy feel of France (which is also attractive in its way). Not that I expect everyone to agree, but I'm genuinely curious as to what gave you such negative vibes.

Thanks for the information hsv. That's really interesting about Bavaria. I had no idea.

I don't know any German. All I've learned about the language is from my friends' 2 year stay in Leipzig.

I think a lot would depend upon Elisabeth's language level. For example my French is still so bad I could study it almost anywhere. It would be a long time of study before I could even begin to work on developing a particular accent in French.

So indytravel, I take it that you were able to learn German in Leipzig, which as Dresden is located in Saxony. Same accent there as in Dresden- and you prove that it was possible! Great!

In general, the German spoken in the North of Germany tends to be purer than if you are going South. The least accent to be encountered is in the region around Hannover, where they really have the purest pronounciation.
Almost always it is possible to detect if someone is from Bavaria, even if that person is not communicating in the local dialect but in plain German.

If only hsv!

From my 6 weeks visiting in the area I only managed to come away with bare-bone basics: getting a hotel room, saying hello, ordering a beer and asking if they could speak English.

My friends did also mention the Hannover "accent" as the one their tutors were striving for. I guess it's the same everywhere. From what I've read Tours is supposed to have the purest French accent.

My French is so bad I couldn't tell if the accent was Parisian, Quebec, Tours or Caribbean. Sigh. Maybe someday.

I think any academic environment in Germany will emphasize Hochdeutsch just as most truly serious institutes of higher learning in the U.S. will preach "proper English". The standards are quite a bit higher in Germany. I would suggest Munich for the same reasons you mention plus their higher regard for Americans. Citizens in the ex-East Germany still have a great mistrust, or even hatred, for their one time enemies. The people of Saxony and especially Dresden are a very serious and aloof lot. Dresdeners still remember the firebombing of their city in WWII like it happened yesterday. I've never felt comfortable there.

My whole reason to visit this forum is to read about Germany. The other countries are just stops along the way while I visit Germany. I know my Danish, Polish and English ancestors are probably rolling around in their graves hearing that - especially since one side of the family left Europe when Bismarck started threatening their sovereignty. German people, German history, German manufacturing, German food, German language, German landscape and German women beat the heck out of the rest of Europe in my book. What the heck.

If you guys prefer tiny platters of food and nasty waiters, you're welcome to France. If you like watery beer and dirty canals, stick with Italy. If you're nostalgic for the 1960's, England's just right. (I'm just teasing folks)

Now that I ticked off 95% of the board, here's my favorite European countries from top to bottom:

1 Germany
2 Switzerland
3 Italy
4 England
5 Czech Republic
6 Spain
7 Denmark
8 France
9 Austria
10 Sweden
11 Poland
12 Netherlands
13 Ireland
14 Liechtenstein
15 Belgium

HSV said it all. I think the dialect is no problem - it is even easier to understand Saxon dialect than Bavarian dialect IMO. In the past years many folks from other German regions and also foreigner moved to Dresden (for study or work).

Elisabeth, if you have never visited the former East Germany this would be an excellent chance to see it. Dresden plus surroundings have to offer as much as Munich (except the Alps), especially in winter with the Erzgebirge mountains as THE German Christmas region.

"I would suggest Munich for the same reasons you mention plus their higher regard for Americans"- I strongly disagree with Zeus. And the further thoughts about East Germans and Dresdners are complete nonsense. The Americans who I have met in Dresden felt very comfortable here. It is certainly a matter of your own expectations. Maybe YOU felt uncomfortable about the firebombing? Dresdners did not forget it, but we know who started WWII.

Indytravel, the Saxon dialect in Dresden is a bit different from the dialect in Leipzig. Leipzig has a "thicker" accent I think. In general I notice that more and more "Hochdeutsch" and less dialect is spoken.

Ingo

I can only speak from my own experience, but when I was in Dresden for several days in 2002, I felt perfectly comfortable. I was staying out in a residential district, not in one of the big central hotels, so I don't think I was entirely cushioned from normal Dresdeners, either. Despite the fact that English seemed less widespread than in the former W. Germany and that my German is limited to a few polite phrases, people were quite helpful. They weren't necessarily wildly effusive, but that was alright with me -- they were perfectly pleasant and polite, and several made friendly conversation.

As for serious, maybe they normally are, but I was there over a holiday weekend in May, and it seemed like everybody who wasn't at the street fair in the Neustadt was either biking and picknicking on the banks of the river or having a jolly time at the cafes on the terraces.

I don't doubt that there are hostile Dresdeners, just like there are hostile people everywhere, but there are plenty of nice ones, too.

I haven't been to Munich.

Hallo,

Confirmed for Dresden.

indytravel,Ingo,hsv,LindaW et al- many thanks for tipping the scale- really, I just needed a bit of a nudge!

indytravel- ich uebe mein deutsch jetzt und hoffentlich sie verstehen mich- mein deustch ist etwas neblig.

USNR, cc:twinokur+twoflower - for the record i do not dislike germany - ich liebe deutschland,ist ausgezeichnet,ist eine schatz but i have family there and visit often, so it's kinda of like a visit to grandma's house, nice but predictable -- hence the allure of the east.

Zeus - reverse psychology? it worked like a charm - part II, no way should belgium be last on the list.

KT - very sensible perspective.

I don't know exactly what it was about Germany that I didn't like. It was just a feeling I got.

Each city is different, which is nice, but the general feeling was that I'm glad I went and saw what I saw, but I wouldn't plan a trip back there any time soon.

Berlin is a great city, but unlike any other German city I've been too. In fact, it didn't feel "German" to me at all. I actually had a very unique experience there. I had been living in Prague all this past year, and took a road trip with some friends to visit some people we knew who were living there. They showed us the ropes, took us to eat, and we even got to go to this abandoned war bunker thats not open to the public (and hasn't been since WWII) because one of the guys we were staying with was an artist and there was some famous exhibition there.
Despite that all, I still felt a very cold feeling from the city. I thought it was dirty, with antisemetic grafitti everywhere. The buildings, obviously communist-style, left me unimpressed...I can't say why exactly, it's just the feeling I had.


Dresden I thought was beautiful, a quaint little place, and was probably the exception to the rest of the country.

I really didn't like Munich at all. I felt the people were cold and stiff, if that makes any sense. The parks were nice, and the astronomical clock in the center was impressive, but the efficiancy of things got to me. Even the beer halls someone is running into the bathroom after you to clean up...and right away! I felt OVERLY American there, and once again, I felt anti-semitism was an issue.

I guess seeing McDonalds and Burger Kings on almost every street corner didn't really do it for me either. It's Europe, but it felt too much like home in that regard....

But hey, to each his own, right! I guess I just prefer the romance and excitment of Italy, Spain, Greece, Prague, etc much better...

"Anti-semitic graffiti everywhere" is nonsense. Germany takes this very very seriously, and a concerted effort is made to deal with it promptly if and when it appears (and it does; I'm not saying Germany is free of anti-Semitism, but it is not any more or any less prevalent than in any other European country). And much of it comes from anti-Israelism of the large Turkish/Muslim communities.

That said, I would go for Dresden. The city is less touristy, and thus more prone for you to learn German, and there are ample opportunities for travel - such as Berlin, but also lesser known regions such as Saxon Switzerland along the Elbe river, the Ore Mountains, where much of the Christmassy decorations/feeling/songs/cakes originate, and lots of little towns that have been magnificently restored since reunification (Bautzen & Goerlitz, for example). Not to mention the proximity of Poland, and the Czech Republic with its great Habsburg-era towns/spas such as Karlsbad/Karlovy Vary & Marienbad/(don't know the Czech).

chtiet: I was there, I saw it with my own eyes, and plenty of it.

It was the only country in Europe I've been to where this was a problem (recently). In 98 I had huge problems in Poland, but this past year was fine.

I was aked why I didn't like Germany, and this is why. Maybe its not directed as much to you as it was toward myself, and therefor you didn't "notice" it.

Hi lwinokur, Good grief -- I'm not quite sure how things have gone awry with talk along this track -- just wanted to say thanks for sharing your opinion-- after all, it is something to which we are each entitled, and yours was appreciated. Dankeschoen! Elisabeth