Aug 8th, 2000, 05:00 AM
dan woodlief
Posts: n/a
Mr. Haines, I replied to you by e-mail, but I was having trouble with it last night. If you didn't get my message, please let me know. Dan
Aug 8th, 2000, 05:56 AM
Posts: n/a
Dear Dan,

What's the big secret that requires an off-line reply? As you and Ben both have such thoughtful and interesting points of view, many of us would enjoy the exchange. Any chance you'll post your thoughts here?

Take care.
Aug 8th, 2000, 06:13 AM
dan woodlief
Posts: n/a
No secrets. I received an e-mail from Ben, so I responded. Maybe it was an automatic one from Fodors, but it seemed to be from Ben. Anyway, I can post my response here tonight, since I will want to copy and paste from the old e-mail at home.

You know, I feel kind of strange about this whole thing. It feels odd to have to defend marketing as a profession because it is a pretty widespread and tremendously varied occupation (anything from fundraising for charities to selling cigarettes to kids), and I don't consider myself to have the "typical" business approach to anything. I am afraid I came off as defending spammers when I was only asking out of curiosity as a marketing professional (shudder). I just tend to be fairly easy going about most things below the seriousness of elections or world crises and have an almost overly objective mindset, so perhaps that is why I don't get so bothered with it. On the other hand, I also have my own pet peeves such as drivers not using turn signals. Sorry, if I seem to be getting defensive, but I am just trying to make my position clear.

What it comes down to is this: an education in European history at one of the country's most liberal grad schools (including loads of seminars on imperialism), followed by an MBA education in marketing can create one mixed up dude.
Aug 8th, 2000, 06:56 AM
Posts: n/a

You have not been at all defensive. You have an opinion and you support it with rational thought and emotion. What more could anyone hope for?

Have a nice day.
Aug 8th, 2000, 09:39 AM
George Holt
Posts: n/a
Sorry April, I didn't mean to imply it was safer to put your address in the body, meerly that it would be your decision to risk being spammed rather than that of a third party (well meaning no doubt) like Fodor's. Sorry if I've tricked you into revealing your secret identity . I think one point worth thinking about is that if Fodor's were not such a cornucopia of email addresses potential spammers probably wouldn't bother to read it in the first place. As I've said I'd defend Fodor's right to know who we are, we're guests in their house and I have naive faith in their privacy policy, but they don't need to publish that info for others to take advantage of.
Aug 8th, 2000, 10:01 AM
Posts: n/a
For what it's worth, I copied 'drunk mama' in excel in text, sorted, parsed out the word author and had 241 email adresses ready for pasting into an email in less than 5 minutes. No special software required. Now, if I built a couple of macros....
Aug 8th, 2000, 11:50 AM
Posts: n/a
Earlier on this thread somebody asked about "e-mail blocks". One of the simple ways to do it is go to your bar menu, and pick the MAIL function. One of the choices when the menu drops is 'INBOX ASSISTANT'. Choose this option. It will bring you to another dialogue box where you want to "ADD" an e-mail address. Choose "ADD". This will bring you to another dialogue box. Enter the e-mail address you want to block in the FROM: field. Then you need to choose what to do with the message. For a choice I use 'deleted items' folder. I have the e-mail set-up so it permanently deletes 'deleted messages' upon exiting e-mail.

I have tried the REMOVE and as somebody already mention, spammers have found many ways around it. This way they only get me the first time.
Aug 8th, 2000, 01:46 PM
Ben Haines
Posts: n/a
I'm replying tothe posting of 8/08/2000, 9:56 am ET. It's plesaant that anyone should care to have my views again, and since you ask here they are. Asyou see, I'm much more sure about the best trainsto Krakow than about marketing.

I think that Mr Woodlief is putting up lively and thoughtful show.

Dear Mr Woodlief,

You're quite right: we share a good deal. I read European and English history at Cambridge. I came down in 1960 more liberal than I am now, I fear. Work in south Asia and in subsaharan Africa leaves me clear that we were right to quit the empire in India (though I wish we'd avoided Partition), but probably wrong to quit Africa, or at least to quit it so soon. Put bluntly, many Africans are now asking Europe to come back. Extraordinary. Maybe a free South Africa will bring a difference, or the deaths of the founding disctators.

Yes, as I wrote I thought of adding that you can wine, dine, spam and junk mail newspapers and magazines all you like, as they need some way to learn of a new product that might interest me.

I'm afraid I'm cussed, and actually regret the plugging of some concerts, exhibitions and plays at the expense of others. You may have seen that the Edinburgh Fringe is undergoing radical change, as small people with innovative plays and shows have trouble drawing public attention amidst the barrage from big promoters. On Fodor's foum, you find many American tourists who praise St Mzrtin in the Fields' candlelit concerts and crypt meals, neither of which are as good as St Janmes Piccadilly, St Anne and St Agnes, or lunch at Gordon's wine bar 200 yards towards the Thames. But St Martin's has its publicity tied up.

So for the arts I subscribe to a weekly listings magazine, where biases are the editors' own, and to the monthly calendars of the National Film Theatre and of the South Bank concert halls, four miles frommy house. These, too, are marketing, but at least they have to mention every event, with roughly equal space given to each.

Sorry to be so long, but I thought it worth writing.

Ben Haines
Aug 8th, 2000, 06:23 PM
dan woodlief
Posts: n/a
Here is the content of my e-mails to Ben. Nothing Earth shattering, but someone wanted to read it.

I have no problem with your point of view. A lot of what marketers do
bothers me too. I really don't think we are coming at this issue from as
different of perspectives as you think. My original background is in the
liberal arts, European history specifically. I spent semester after
semester in one of the most liberal grad schools in the U.S. studying
imperialism, so let's just say I didn't enter business school with a typical
business mindset. I work in marketing as a profession, but I don't
subscribe to everything it can entail. Spammers in particular have no
defense. I doubt many legitimate companies, such as the one for which I
work, would even consider employing such tactics. I was simply interested
to know what reasons people have for having such a virulent hatred of spam
e-mail, since I just basically delete mine and don't think too much of it.
I will admit I don't like it when I am away for a period and have to clear
out a lot of extra messages.

As far as marketing as a profession goes, it really does have its redeeming
aspects. There is a lot more to marketing than what people normally think
about. We don't all work for McDonalds and the big cigarette companies.
Marketers are responsible for publicizing art exhibits, concerts, and other
things that nobody complains about. Not only that, but they do much of the
research to determine what the public wants to see and hear. One large part
of marketing, if you want to do it right, is to determine what the customer
wants, not how to push a product on the customer. Many of our greatest
innovations have resulted from understanding what people want to be able to
do and how they want to do it. I am not comparing marketing to medicine,
but I just wanted to say it is not all bad. One final point, if I may. I
don't know much about marketing practices in the UK, but here much of what
you read in the newspapers about products and companies is the result of
marketing. Newspapers often do reviews of products or companies because
they learned about them through press releases sent to them by the
companies. I used to do marketing for a non-profit agency, and we commonly
sent out press releases about our books and conferences. Anyway, thanks
for letting me know what your thoughts are on the subject.

I enjoyed your e-mail. A lot of interesting thoughts. You made me realize
just how much I hate the over commercialization of the world as we know it.
It ranges from sporting events in the U.S. to dance festivals in New Guinea.
It seems you can't go anywhere without seeing the names of McDonalds, Coca
Cola, and Marlboro. Although I work in marketing as a profession, I indeed
share your disdain for this aspect of our societies. I have enjoyed your
posts many times on Fodors, and I am sure I will give you a ring so to speak
whenever I finally make it to the UK, as I do like to mix in a lot of lesser
knowns with the main sights.

Aug 8th, 2000, 06:51 PM
Posts: n/a
Without getting too cerebral, I suppose SPAM is the price we all must pay for open communications within a free society, worldwide. Take the case of our daughter in Chicago. She recently returned from a splendid and well-deserved 24-day vacation in Canada. When she opened her e-mail "in" box, out poured 350 "pieces" of e-mail, much of it SPAM. Surely, Monte Python's crew could have made a great skit out of that scene. So our daughter sat down at her "delete" button while watching her clothes go 'round in the dryer.
Aug 9th, 2000, 05:22 AM
dan woodlief
Posts: n/a
Al, in the small town where I am from, that would be considered a big night.
Aug 9th, 2000, 05:23 AM
Posts: n/a
They COULD make SPAM illegal in the United States, like unsolicited faxes are, and that would stop a great deal of it. If other countries followed, we could have a SPAM-free world.
Aug 12th, 2000, 05:29 AM
Posts: n/a
Some say that 80% of traffic is SPAM.
SPAM is only annoying if you let it be.You can post your real email address as long as you keep a separate one for posting.
If it really bugs you, join an anti spam group.Often you can trace which servers they use & ask for them to be blocked.
Usually you can't trace them all the way - at some point they use an open relay & edit the send address.
Inserting "nospam" into your address mostly works, though there are probably programs which can strip this out.
Be aware that there are programs which search bulletein boards looking for anything that looks like an email address.
My main point is DON'T GET MAD.
Anyone who expects privacy on the net is in for a disappointment, though you can take some simple steps to minimise intrusion.
They day when SPAM can be stopped will be a bad day for the net.Think about it.Its worth a little hassle to keep your freedom.

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