AlessandraZoe

Thanks for the feedback, Macross. I had to look up "Quakers in Ireland" right away! Wow. I had no clue that Quakers had such a history in Ireland. Heck, I was surprised to see a few Baptist churches in Northern Ireland.

That darn post office explosion in Dublin really did Irish ancestry research in! It's so hard to believe that I can trace back many of my English lines back to 1600s with ease, and yet as soon as I hit Ireland, I have to look for breadcrumb trails.

There are certainly parish records, Macross, that can help others with Catholic and even Anglican backgrounds, but since my NI line was poor Presbyterian, unless they owned land then, not much help. What is even more frustrating that the line I was researching is certainly in American history books from the mid-to-late 1800s as an example of "a determined Scots Irish family". Of course, 1/3 of the facts are wrong in the books, but...

The "church lady" did come up with a few people with the same last names who were hanging around in the wider Derry area in 1830 (again, my ancestor left Londonderry in 1819), so I'm going to head down that road. I've lost count of how many search services to which I'm subscribed (my husband has no clue) and I'm going to churn them all again.

AlessandraZoe

Our HO-HO guide was the first one to tell us to go to the Sunflower for trad. But he had given us other names, too, which I had hurriedly scribbled them down on my Samsung Note to research later. When I had mentioned the pub to one of our servers, she had wrinkled up her nose and said, "Why would you go there?" But another server's eyes had lit up and she said, "It's sort of grungy cool. I like the friends who like to go there."

Ok. ??

I had not done any research on this place. All I knew is that is had trad performing at 8 pm on a Wednesday, and that meant we might be awake. Our fallback would be trad at the Dirty Onion or another session at The Points.

While trying to get their, our phone GPS had us in circles again, and the neighborhood looked a tad sketchy, but we made it to the packed Sunflower before the trad session began. We entered the pub through a strange caged entrance. While my husband got us beers, I moved on to search outside beer garden for seats, and a person kindly moved down to make room for me.

A guy to my left heard my accent and he demanded with a huge smile, "Why, on God's Earth, are you here?" I blinked, not knowing how to respond. "I mean, did you read some 'alternative tourist' list? " he demanded. I finally found my voice and said, "We just keep asking people for places to hear trad." So he said, "Well, that's here. What else is here is that this place represents a rarity in Belfast. You can be a Prod, Catholic, gay, anything and you are welcome here." Finding my voice, I finally retorted, "So even idiotic Americans are allowed?" His group laughed and said, "Just barely". My husband appeared in the doorway, telling me he had found seats inside near the session. The guy to my left said, "Get going--that group is good and you'll want to hear them."

The group was fabulous. It was advertised as "Pipping Hot session, a traditional session featuring Belfast's top uilleann pipers." And I told my husband, not only the pipes were hot; the guys themselves were drop-dead gorgeous. They were joined by a flutist and a guitar player. Another guy did mild percussion for them.

We were soon joined at our table by a couple of other people, one of whom started chatting, intrigued that we Americans had ended up here. I told him how the guy outside had expressed surprise at my presence (I do sort of look like a church lady), and he said, "This place is a BIG deal. There are LGBT clubs here, sure, but this is one of the few places where ANYONE can be ANYTHING. A couple people will leave here and go to their Republican pub; I'll be going to my Gay pub in a bit. But we all can cross over here. Take a look at the decor." I looked up. OMG--Pride flags, every kind of flag. "It's hard to be LGBT in Ireland" he said. I said, "It must be hard anywhere", but he interrupted me, "In Ireland it's almost impossible." I told him that I was immediately thinking of Lyra McKee, whose "Letter to My 14-yr-old Self" had been haunting me since her death. His eyes got big. "Have you seen the mural? Oh, you have to see it! It's near here."

Here is the link to it:

Soon he left, wishing us well. And I settled back to research the pub in which we were sitting. Wow, not only had it been named Pub of the Year in 2015, it had gone through The Troubles and a lot of city wrangling. When the owner had taken over as the neighborhood had fallen apart, he had kept the "bomb cages" at the entrance, hanging flowerpots from them. Then the city demanded he remove the cages because they obstruct the sidewalk. But somehow, they are still there because people "got" why it was important to mark history and the transformation. Now the place is under threat of destruction because of an urban renewal project. There are a lot of people saying, "No. Keep this place as a legacy of what religious and political freedom can be." The bar has been the very fitting location for the Punk Rock history movie, Good Vibrations.

We finally left, and we decided to hit the Dirty Onion on the way home to use the restrooms and get a last beer. Who was there but the guy who had verbally assaulted me at The Sunflower! I poked him in the shoulder and said, "OMG, you were right about that bar." He introduced me to his friends, and I brought my husband into the circle. He told us that Americans in North Ireland are still a relative rarity, and he was interested why we were there. We explained about all our former trips in the Republic, and that we felt we had been missing something. This was a super educated guy, and we asked him what Brexit would be doing to NI. He sighed and said, "Blow it up." Our very words. "Look--I'm one of the pretty educated Catholics who has always been integrated into the Protestant community. There are a lot of us. We all really felt if we could just put a couple more decades between The Troubles and the Peace, we'd be OK. But right now, when the UK is edging towards a government that will not serve anyone here in NI, we need to join the Republic for economic stability."

My husband, who is in finance, said, "As an outsider, a year ago I started thinking, 'Wow, England itself is cutting off a foot and maybe a hand in the Brexit vote, but it's decapitating Northern Ireland." They group nodded, indicating that he had it down. My husband added, "What can we say? Look what the US did." The guys and his friends started laughing. "Oh we know you did not vote for the guy. Hell, if you have a passport, we know you did not vote for the guy." We all laughed and wished each other well.

We walked home and enjoyed the purple-lit Belfast Titanic glowing over the River Lagan.

Next: Our Last Day/Night

thursdaysd

Sounds like you are having a really wonderful trip!

I was a little surprised to read that you were surprised to find Baptists in Ireland, given that the denomination started in England (like Methodism and Quakerism), so looked it up: https://baptistsinireland.org/about/our-story/

AlessandraZoe

thursdaysd--It was pretty heavy Catholic, Presby, Anglican turf we viewed in NI, with a few Methodist churches dotted in between. So when I passed a Baptist church, I sure noted it. I've just looked up the demographics, and you can understand why I did a "Hmm" when I spotted one. Macross, I never did see a Quaker building, but I was not on a sort of "spot the religious institution" hunt. We were into scenery and trad and anything else we saw was a by-product.

My English grandparents were BIG time Methodist Episcopal, and since I was raised as a Presbyterian, that side of the family regarded my mother with some suspicion and wondered about my father's judgment. At least no one drank. The "wine" in my Presby church was grape juice; my paternal grandfather could live with that.

If they could see me now. OMG.

Macross

Famous Irish Quakers. Bewleys, Pims, Cadbury, Roundtree, Guinness, Schweppes and the Allens of Ballymaloe. They founded many of the hospitals. Maybe my relative did something non-violent in the war of 1812. Maybe a medic.
The Sunflower pub. I am trying to figure out a day trip to Belfast in December now. I sent the link to a friend who I knew would so love reading your report.

bvlenci

Some Presbyterian churches kept their own records, and these didn't get destroyed in the fire at the Dublin post office. One of my greatgrandmothers was Presbyterian, and I have records from her church back into the early 1800s. But, really, part of the problem is that there just weren't many records in early times.

Two of the possibile sources are Griffiths Valuation, and the Tithe Applotments. The first is a land survey carried out in the mid 1800s, which lists every little piece of land, with the name of the tenant and the landlord. I have found all of my great grandparents in those documents, with maps of their farms.

The other source is the Tithe Applotmemts, from the 1820s, which is a record of all landowners and tenants who had to pay tithes to the Church of Ireland. This includes any tenant or landowner, of any religion, except if they were tenant of land belonging to the Church of Ireland. This tithe was resented by the other religion, but was justified by the fact that the Church was responsible for social services. I've found almost all of my great-great-grandparents in these documents, although in some cases I'm not sure who was a parent and who was an uncle.

Both of these sources are available free online, and you don't have to join any group to access them. They are both based on land, so they don't include most town dwellers, unfortunately. It's not easy to find your ancestors in either source if you don't know pretty well where they lived. My family were all from Northern Ireland, and all were farmer, except for one family who were shepherds. All my ancestors were born within a 40-mile radius, and they emigrated in the 20th century. (All of my grandparents, and even my father, were born in Ireland.) We never lost touch with relatives in Northern Ireland, which made it much easier for me. Someone in my father's family even had a family Bible, which was a great help.

If you want more specific information about sources, send me a PM.

bvlenci

I've also found relatives through DNA testing, although it's always been too far back to pinpoint the exact relationship. For example, one person who is estimated to be my 2nd or 3rd cousin, had a great-great-grandmother with the same surname as my grandfather, who lived in a town about three miles from my grandfather's birth place. She might be a sister of my great-grandfather, but I don't know the names of his siblings.

AlessandraZoe

bvlenci--Thank you so much for the kind suggestions. Yes, that is exactly why I wanted to hit that precise records office. The Presby lady did come up with a hint of a geographic area that might have been where my immigrant 3rd great grandfather set out on his trip to the US. But it's just a hint. His sons wrote to each other at some point after his death, confirming that their father had been born in Londonderry and left from there in 1819, but I suspect he lived just a bit north where there was a singular concentration of Scots. There are some American history documents that would suggest that his father had been escaping violence in Scotland and was frustrated to have met more in Ireland, making me assume that my ancestor said, "Enough of this--I'm out of here." He became a very patriotic American, and all of his sons fought for the Union cause in the American Civil War.

I've been sort of the detective of the secrets of the line for this immigrant. My mother knew NOTHING about this branch of her maternal line's history, even though she lived with her grandmother, who would have been HIS granddaughter, and she was very close to her spinster great aunt and bachelor great uncles, his other grandchildren. In fact, for much of my mother's youth, she would visit them every day. You would think...
She was quite tickled when I showed her all that her great-great aunts and uncles achieved in such a very short time. For example, bridges we crossed weekly if not daily were designed and built by one of them.

DNA has NOT been helpful with this line, mainly because I have become "the Yoda" about it and others beg ME for information. My husband's Scots-Irish line has been easier to trace, a line I can backtrack from the American Revolution to Northern Ireland to Scotland, and DNA confirmations for that line have been icing on the cake.

DNA has been quite helpful with my Wigan Lancashire ancestors for some confirmations and to a lesser extent, my Devon crew because my paternal aunt, now deceased, worked hard at age 90 to give me DNA. God Bless Her. But not only do I have a family Bible from that Devon line that stretches back to around 1800; I also have family stories. DNA was also helpful in establishing my husband's Cornish ancestor because that guy's father's "second family" left for Australia and those descendants contacted me.

And I have to admit, I'm "hiding out" from one other branch.

AlessandraZoe

The sun was shining and we were raring to go. We had one last day in Belfast, but instead of feeling we had to do a lot more, we just wanted to soak up the city of which we had become so very fond. After a breakfast near "The Big Fish", we set out to take pictures of various Belfast Entries, various alleys that reminded us of Paris passages. Pottinger's Entry we knew from our sojourns to The Morning Star. Joy's Entry my husband knew because of his evening out without me to The Jailhouse/Henry's Bar. Winecellar's Entry was a place we'd been passing without seeing, and we darted in to look at the outside of White's Tavern, established in 1630.

We moved on to St Ann's Cathedral, also known as Belfast Cathedral. We paid the small fee, and for the most part, enjoyed our self-guided tour of the church. I was fascinated by the mosaics and by the Titantic Pall, a handstitched representation of the lives lost. After our stay, we handed back our leaflets so that they could be reused, and walked out into the sunshine. I told my husband I still had pubs I wanted to see. Nearby was the John Hewitt. MIght as well drop in!

So I had no idea why our HO-HO driver told us to look at this place. It looked ancient but had only been opened in 1999. Then I read the history. Ah, so that's it. The bar had become part of the Belfast Unemployed Resource Centre's ventures, and it was named after the poet who had created the Unemployed Resource Centre, John Hewitt. Got it. And we had a really good IPA there that was a tad high for our trip--about 6.5% ABV--so we could only have one small one.

Moving on. I had notes on The Duke of York, and tadah, I got it. It's a mecca of bardom:

• THE DUKE OF YORK
• THE HARP BAR
• THE NEW ORPHEUS
• FRIEND AT HAND
• THE DARK HORSE
• THE DARK HORSE COURTYARD

and eventually, the alley they are on leads to...
The Dirty Onion (aka, our home turf).

We did not stop. We figured we'd use the restrooms at City Hall, make our way down to the Europe Hotel for our next pint, and then figure out at which restaurant we'd dine for the evening before our 8:30 Blue Grass at The Points.

Seated at a Europa bar table where we could charge our phones, we decided to see if we could dine at The Ginger Bistro. I called, and the manager said that they would be fully booked, but we could take a chance on their walk-in side. We would.

The day was getting hot, and we had to check one thing before we headed home to do most of our packing for our return home. We stopped at the Europa Bus Centre to see if we could pre-buy a bus ticket for the 600 line to George Best Airport. We had an early flight, and although we knew for sure we were near a bus stop, we did not want to leave anything to chance. The ticket agent said we could only buy day of, but he assured us there would be no problem. "Just pay on the bus and don't worry." So we trotted off to home.

We now were packing for air travel rather than train or bus, so we had to do a bit of rearranging. And we could not believe that we had placed all these belongings inside our bags--there was way too much stuff! But we managed. We took a short nap, a short shower, and then headed out for our final evening.

Our wait at the Ginger Bistro was not long at all. The floor manager was fabulous and the servers were excellent, as was the food. We had done quite well!

Off to The Points for Blue Grass! Because this was a paid event (one buys the tickets online), the music was upstairs in a less-than-comfy bar area. And we were awfully early--we had arrived for a sound check. But we found the perfect table, had the perfect beer in hand, and settled in. There would be two bands playing that night. The first, the Cool Hand String Band from Omagh, was worth the price of admission all by itself. Although all four musicians were good, the fiddle-player, Bronagh Broderick, was outstanding. We talked to her after the set and told her how thrilled we were. We stayed for a bit of the second group and were not as thrilled. Time for bed

Our last evening walk home in pretty Belfast! Sigh.

Next: George Best City Airport to Heathrow

AlessandraZoe

How could I forget? There was an appendix to our last evening's plans! We were walking "home" from The Points and heard music coming out of Joy's Entry. Henry's Bar was in fine fettle, with three very young but very good trad musicians. We sat at the bar for one more pint (luckily, we had had only one each at The Points) and savored it all. We finally left when the musicians stopped at midnight. Good. Now THAT put a fine ending onto the trip.
------------------------------------
We fell asleep fast and woke around 5 pm, showered, and finished the last of our ground coffee. It would be a long travel day.

Our 600 bus would stop at Queen's Square, Albert Clock, a spit from our apartment, at 6:21 a.m. We were at the stop by 6:15, the time the bus started its route from the Europa BusCentre. We were not taking chances. All went smoothly and we were at the airport by 6:28 a.m. The total fare for two was about 5 pounds, I believe.

So as some of you know, I had been VERY worried about all the steps involved in this small airport because we had to make it to Heathrow to fly home. I had snagged First Class upgrades on British Airways, and I was not up for flying in coach because of a missed flight or stupidity on our parts. The TI people had told me when we arrived in NI to be at the check-in area by 6:45 for our 8:45 flight, so I really had thought we were close to getting rid of our stuff. Hmm.

Well, the one Aer Lingus agent did not show up until 7:15, and she did not start checking in people until around 7:25. But by then there was quite a line of people who were checking all of their worldly possessions. I mean carts and carts of bags. And a couple of people could not seem to find their passports.

Luckily a co-worker showed up at around 7:30 am. We had Fast Track, so once we got checked in, we were off to the races. Or so we thought. People in front of us were scanned and rescanned at least four times. One person was sent back to the check-in agent, something a past reviewer of the airport had noted, and actually, while waiting in line outside security, we saw two or three individuals come BACK from security to get something from the check-in agent. So word to the wise--I'd still get there early!

OK, we made it through, and we then had access to the Aer Lingus lounge, which was not exactly a perk. Our flight had been delayed, but that was OK. We were not flying out of Heathrow until 3:45 pm, and there was another flight or two after our Belfast flight we could take if things got bad. After we finally boarded the plane, there was a delay of take-off because two of the passengers whose bags were on the plane were missing. They had to comb through the loaded luggage to get their bags off. And away we went.

Next: Getting from Heathrow Terminal 2 to Terminal 5, the home of the Concord Lounge
and
Some Reflections on the NI Trip

AlessandraZoe

I have no intention of describing our last leg home. But I do want to share the timing for others in case one needs to know how long to allow between flights at LHR.

Our flight to Heathrow via Aer Lingus was not a code share. Therefore, we had to pick up our luggage at the end. We laughed thinking about our former life where we would have done everything by carry-on and could have skipped this step. Since we had arrived in Terminal 2 we had to make our way to Terminal 5 after picking up our bags.

For future reference, yes, the actual transfer between terminals via the Heathrow Express area using the free TFL service (formerly known as "Heathrow Connect") takes only 3 minutes. But be aware that GETTING to the transfer can be quite a hike and WAITING for the transfer can take quite a while. You need to get a free ticket at a special kiosk near the entry gates--and KEEP THAT TICKET once you get through so you can exit once again. We figure that from the time we exited the plane at Terminal 2 and got to Terminal 5, it took an hour.

Of course, since we had snagged those First Class seats, once we arrived at Terminal 5, life became a lot easier. One simply looks for the First Wing entrance (again, a bit of a walk) and then check-in and security becomes simplified. Still, one should note that it took around a half hour from stepping through the doors of Terminal 5 to stepping through the doors of the Concorde Room. And it would take about 1/2 hour from there to get to the boarding area of our plane.

thursdaysd

AlessandraZoe

Thursdays--UNDERSTATEMENT and a pun! Good for you.

I just kept saying to my husband, "We could not have done this six months after my hip replacement." This is from the perspective that I somehow had managed to do Venice and a cycle trip 3 months after my hip replacement.

Whoa! Even better--we had managed to fly ATL to CDG and back with a rollator for my back injury, and that was not far as taxing in terms of getting to gates, etc.

That's why I wanted to give others fair warning that there is no way to cross one's arms, blink, and transfer between Heathrow Terminals (or even gates!) lickety split.

thursdaysd

AlessandraZoe

Did we feel hampered without a car?
How did your hotel/apartment stays work out?
What would I revisit? Where else would we go in Northern Ireland?
Where else would we go in Ireland?

Did we feel hampered without a car?
No. One just plans a trip differently. Once one knows the public transport limitations, making an itinerary actually becomes easier. We could easily packed in a lot more by public transport; we just did not care to do so. We had already been doing a lot in Cornwall the week before we landed in NI. We are experienced travelers who know that life isn't about how many places one visits in a week but about seeking out places and experiences one can enjoy. And since finding IPAs while listening to Trad is one of our sought-out experiences, not being behind a wheel benefited us and the general population. And think about it--we only took ONE taxi for our entire NI stay, and it was at the end of a day's walking.

How did your hotel/apartment stays work out?
If we returned to Belfast, we'd need a shorter visit, so it would make sense to stay at the Hotel Europa if we were revisiting the trad pubs we enjoyed most. I LOVED our apartment view, though, and having a washer/dryer was such a nice perk for our long stay.
Bushmill's Inn and Bishop's Gate worked out perfectly for our needs.

What would I revisit? Where else would we go in Northern Ireland?
Well, we'd revisit Belfast in a second. I'd have to think about where else I'd like to visit on the Coastal Causeway, especially if we only wanted to hear Trad. Maybe I'd try to get to the Mellon American Folk Park in Omagh.

Where else would we go in Ireland?
We've been to The Republic many times (all without a car) but we've never seen County Donegal. It will be a challenge, but I'll figure it out. Poster Macross convinced me we need to see Ballycotton. I could probably make that visit work with our intention to visit Wales with the Rosslare/Pembroke ferries. We'll see.

Happy Planning!
AZ

AlessandraZoe

Just sayin'...
My husband was tickled pink to watch The Open over the weekend. His buddies were impressed by the course but also stunned by the incredible scenery. My husband, who NEVER brags, loved being able to say, "We hiked that". And as I had related about our time on the Giant's Causeway, the wind gusts were capable of knocking us off our pins on a "mild" day, so we were well aware of how Shane and Tommy were having to duke it out with Mother Nature on the last day.

Macross

I love the video going around of Shane in a bar with everyone singing fields of Athenry. He is up on the table. His Grandmother was funny being interviewed also. I always wonder how they golf with those winds.

You have inspired me to explore Derry now.

hattonth

Thank you for this wonderful trip report, I hope you go on holiday again soon so we have more to read! I will miss the updates.

Being British, it is always great to read other's perception and understanding of the country, so loved your reviews of Exeter and Cornwall, and I have not visited Ireland or NI (a huge oversight on my part!) so great to read those too.

AlessandraZoe

hattonth--What a kind remark! I'll have to tell my husband we're expected to get back on the road for the good of the forum

aussie_10

We are heading to Northern Ireland at the end of the month. Flying into Dublin, picking up a car and driving to Belfast. Then to Giants Cause way, we are staying in Port Rush, then Derry and on to Galway.

I have really enjoyed your trip report and have taken many notes. Lots of great information, getting excited now.
Thanks for sharing.