Joanne

I returned to Paris, a city which is amazing, beautiful, historic, romantic. But it is also eccentric, temperamental - pouty! I have to be honest and say that this last trip to Paris left me a little irritable. Even going out of our way to be gracious and speak French as much as possible, there was always an air of indifference and self-absorption among the Parisians. Not that they should care that the "Griswolds" have arrived for their big vacation in Paris. But don't you think that, if you're in the hospitality business, you might want to be....hospitable?

Maira

Joanne--- I do agree with you on the somewhat detached attitude of the Parisians, but see no reason to be bothered by it. What you perceived to be temperamental may very well be an expression of the French attitude towards privacy and respect for other people's personal space. Best thing to do is feel good about yourself for been so thoughtful as to want to be a pleasant visitor and try not to read too much into the French attitude.

There is always Spain & Italy!!! Such warm people! Vive La Difference!!!

Richard

Joanne, I gotta tell ya, I've been to Paris maybe 11, 12 times, alone, with my wife, with my kids, always as a tourist, and never felt any of what you describe. Perhaps it's because I worked in Manhattan for 10 years and heard all the "war stories" about the city, but I never experienced any problems there either. Maybe I'm dumb, or numb or maybe I just take things as they come (no rhyme intended there). I could go on but suffice it to say "Je taim Paris" (I hope that's right).

martha

Joanne, I think Richard is trying to call it treason!
I liked your post--there have been discussions about whether various myths have any basis, and I was eager to believe that the French were a warm, loveable bunch who would reward even the most inept efforts to speak French and otherwise acknowledge one's outsider status. Oh well--if ever people were entitled to civic pride (smugness? arrogance?), it't the Parisians.
Did your family have a good trip?

Joe

Joanne, I know what you mean, and I don't see it as treason. At the same time, I think the attitude is part of what gives Paris its enjoyable edge. And while I like NYC too, Parisians do a better job of combining charm with temperment. I was there last July after the World Cup, and everyone seemed especially fiesty. But they were clearly having fun and were willing to share as long as American tourists recognized them as champions du monde. It seemed worth the price. Joe

Lee

Joanne: It's likely that each of us have felt that way about some place and maybe Paris.

In Cannes, they love Americans with even a fourth of July parade with Mickey and Minnie. Not so in Paris.

My first trip in 1984 was a bust. I got into it with a policeman right under the Eiffel Tower when he gave me the finger for asking directions. I was hot! I was living and working in Frankfurt and a co-worker, my mentor, described to me that I was part of the problem. He told me to pack an open mind and to be flexible when visiting any country. You know, he was right. I have been back to Paris five times, the latest trip in 1998 (I've been home in Pennsylvania for quite some time now) and enjoyed it every time I went. Was the city different? No, but I was.

I've learned that there are jerks and there are great folks in every city in every country. You just count yourself lucky when you only meet the latter and not the former. I've been pretty lucky.

elvira

Aah you've touched the nerve of this francophile BUT...you're right. Parisians are not loving and welcoming; neither are New Yorkers or anyone who has to go to work everyday (like at a bank) and deal with the extra people crowding the streets and public transportation. Personally, I like the snotty attitude. After all, if you want gushy smiley ootsy wootsy, there's always Disneyworld.
I also think the French are a little touchy because they are seeing other European countries get a lot of the attention they used to get (technology wizards, haute cuisine, haute couture), and their noses are a little out of joint.
I'd still rather be in Paris than anywhere else, even if the natives are about as friendly as jumping cholla...

joyce

Joanne: I just finished reading Platt's "French or Foe. It addresses this very subject. History (yours & theirs) has much to do with your interaction. After reading this book, I have a better understanding of the culture. What your culture finds offensive may not be offensive to another culture,etc. Having this information keeps the stress level low. It's hard to adjust if you are friendly and smile a lot, but "when in France"...

John

Joanne, were your comments related to an isolated incident or was it just your overall impression? I've been to Paris many times and some Parisians can certainly be snooty, but in general, they are warm, polite and friendly. Perhaps not as well as the italians, but the cultures are different.

I have to agree with Lee and say that the problem is often more with the expectations of the visitor than with the locals. Which reminds me of an old chinese proverb ... he who expects nothing is never disappointed.

Joanne

Thanks, all, for your time and thoughts.
This is what I think happened. First, our concierge at a not cheap hotel declared, when asked to help us arrange our next morning's train trip to Italy, "It is not possible to get to Italy, because they are on strike, again. There are no buses. They are no boats. You and you children can walk, but otherwise it is not possible to get to Italy." That got my goat. After much discussion, we rented a car, and got to Italy. Had the concierge in my building helped my clients in a similar way, she would have been without a job.

Second, we enjoyed Italy, where people went out of their way to make us feel welcome and help us with our little day to day problems of getting around in a strange city.

And finally, returning to Paris from Rome to fly back to the states, the security guard and his superior refused to handcheck my camera and film, even though I showed him the fast film speed and presented a manufacturer's note saying that x-ray might damage my film. He said that I should go stand aside until I decided that I should put my film through the x-ray and if I missed my plane he would be more happy.

We brought our kids to France to let them practice their French, see great art, and learn to love another culture, and my teenager asked me why the French hate us. This may be a problem, because we're hosting a French student from Paris next month. My teenager will hold his tongue, but my little boys might just ask some direct questions.

To answer one poster's question - did our family have a good time? We had a great time. Is that ironic? I don't know. Paris is a great city, and France is a beautiful country. But I am starting to wonder if the quality of my travel experiences depends more on the architecture or the attitude.

Elvira, I liked your post, although cannot totally agree with it. Many of us have to go to work every day like in a bank (or in a brokerage house, in my case) and have to deal with extra people crowding their space. And I've lived on both coasts, LA and Boston, and understand the extra stresses of people who live in large cities.

I think your point about attention placed elsewhere might be the key in the rusty lock - it rings a bell. (Although the French have more computers per capita than most other European countries, and I'm expecting the haute couture Paris gray to come to my hometown no sooner than 2-3 years, and my kids did attain an appreciation of snails or at least said that they did.)

All in all, we will return to France, but we will continue to complain.

Andrew

Oh come on.
There's no shame in saying it.

Paris is a great city but the Parisians can be a haughty bunch of twerps.

They're offended when you can't speak French, and they complain about your accent when you can.

Blaming their rudeness on cultural influences seems a bit weak.

Does anyone know what impression non-Parisian French have of Parisians.

francesca

Many Americans, including me, have a problem with the lack of service-mindedness in France (and other European countries). Polly Platt's book sheds some light why service can be so bad in France. After 6 years here, here's my 2 centimes worth: companies are not places of service to customers, they are places of employment. This is changing--slowly. French who visit the US come back blown away by the incredible customer focus at most hotels, restaurants, airlines, etc. and their eyes then open to the appalling level of service in their own country. France will catch up. In the meantime, much of the "snootiness" is just big-city coolness. Non-Parisian French people also find Parisians rather cold and rude, just as many Americans find New Yorkers brusque (I don't, but then again I am a city person and don't say hello to people on the street, either). I hope that next time you visit, you wind up with more enlightened service people--they *do* exist!

Monica

Hello Joanne,

When I was in Paris in October 1997, my Mother and I encountered only 2 French people who we considered "rude."

However, after reading "French or Foe," I have a greater understanding of the French and their culture. I agree with Maira when she says "...an expression of the French attitude towards privacy and respect for other people's personal space." Americans live in a very "open" environment and have lots of personal space, whereas the French (at least in Paris) have a much smaller personal space. (If this doesn't make sense, the book will definitely explain things.) A lot of people tell me, "The French hate the Americans." I just tell them to read "French or Foe." It certainly changed my attitude about them.

I have heard that once outside Paris, you will encounter friendlier people. But as I said before, we met only 2 which were considered rude. That's not bad considering we were in Paris for most of our trip.

I travel with an open mind knowing that our culture is different from every other culture. That's why people should travel: to learn about others, see new sights, to learn what's different, and so much more.

I think no matter where one goes, there will always be differences.

Joanne, as for your situation with not being able to handcheck your camera, that happens in most foreign countries. That has happened to me in France, Italy, Spain, and Greece.

Everyone should just try to make the best of their trip and ENJOY!

elvira

I live in a part of the U.S. that gets inundated with winter visitors, some of whom drive RVs the size of Cleveland through our already-congested streets. They try our patience, especially when we hear the phrase "WELL, that's NOT how we do it in NEW YORK!". We grin and bear it, because that's our culture. The French aren't very good at grinning and bearing it.
And as for the opinion held about Parisians by non-Parisian French, my friend from the south of France summed it up: "Why do you go to Paris?? They hate everybody; they even hate US!"
I still love the critters though; mostly, I tee-hee behind their backs when they get uppity. There are four of us (women) who have been to Paris on several trips, and we wait anxiously for a Parisian "experience" so that we can reduce ourselves to screaming gales of laughter once back in our hotel room. Then, just one key word or phrase at any time after that, and we are holding our sides with laughter, gasping for breath.
Little did that smartass flic know that he would be butt of our jokes....for the last 5 years!

jim

I didn't encounter a single rude or condescending Parisian in my one-week stay there last year.

I did however avoid making small talk or general comments in the hope of striking up a conversation with a native.

martha

A lot of these comments seem to suggest that Joanne had problems because she did something wrong. This is the woman who was willing to make her boys dress up if that was appropriate for Europe. She seems pretty darned accommodating to me.
Maybe those of us who never noticed any rudeness are just obtuse. I mean, on my second trip to Paris a desk clerk corrected my pronunciation, and someone pointed out that that was a typical way of insulting non-Francophones. Because I spoke most of my French in a classroom and was thus corrected all the time, it felt like par for the course to me. But then I realized that I never correct non-Anglophones' pronunciation.
It's all well and good to maintain a positive outlook and to realize that cultures have different standards of behavior, but different isn't always good. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, and sometimes it's just different. It's possible to, say, refuse to inspect someone's camera by hand but still be polite about it.

jim

Martha, interesting points ....

The only time I correct people's English pronunciation is when I've misunderstood one word for another (e.g. train, I thought you said rain).

French has many such words and pronunciation appears to be very important. (eg. sur with and without circumflexe mean different things with subtle differences in pronunciation).

Stanley

I have never had any Parisians correct my French and I only speak French to them and often get in long conversations. To me most have been anywhere from civil to quite friendly. Even chatty. The only haughty remark I have ever gotten was from the headwaiter at the Jules Verne restaurant. I do admit that I myself have corrected the English of people who have immigrated here to the USA and are still strugggling with learning English. I worked hard to have no accent in English (or French or any of the other languages I speak) and I am glad that people can never spot me by any accent in the countries whose langauges I speak. I believe it is a good thing to know the correct pronounciation of any word from a native speaker whenever one is not pronouncing something right.

John

Martha, I don't mean to imply that Joanne had problems because she did something wrong. I just wanted to know what the circumstances were that made her feel the way she does. Many visitors to Paris can tell you about the snooty or haughtiness of Parisians. Other french people from outside of Paris will be the first to tell you about the Parisians.

However, Joanne said, "even going out of our way to be gracious and speak french as much as possible, there was always an air of indifference and self-absorption among the Parisians." I wonder what Joanne expected. Did Joanne expect the Parisians to welcome her with open arms and roll out the red carpet because she had made an effort to be gracious and speak their language?

Are the Parisians suppose to be thrilled with all the tourists with the never ending parade of tour buses? Are they suppose to be thrilled with the extra crowds at the restaurants and musuems?

As for Joanne's specific complaints I have the following comments.

Joanne, I think the french a well as other europeans rely more on their own wares when making travel arrangements than we, Americans, do. Paris is the most visited city in the world and it is probably true that, in general, Americans are the most unsophisticated travellers of any and make more demands. I say in general, because there are obviously many travellers on this forum who do not fall into this class. They are extremely savvy about travelling. My comment is more for the novice and inexperienced travellers. Perhaps the concierge was curt with you because you were not aware of the train strike in Italy. I also do not think that renting a car would be typical for them or at the top of their list of choices as they automatically think of public transportation.

Contrary to common belief, airports are under no obligation to handcheck cameras or film. Of course, many do which leads to the common belief, but they really don't have to handcheck anything. I do believe the regulations call for everything to be passed through the x-ray machine. Perhaps they were more concerned with the security of their airplanes and passengers than with your film and pictures. Especially since this Kosovo thing is going on and I am sure the security measures have heightened in the airports of Europe. Also, the use of a lead-lined storage bag for your film which is the reccommended procedure would have precluded this whole incident. As for being told to stand aside to decide what you want to do, I suppose the area was busy with other passengers trying to pass through the checkpoint at that time which is understandable. I can just imagine anyone, no less a "foreigner", holding up the line at any major US airport with a mob of Americans trying to get to their departure gates. Also, to the airport security people, the question really wasn't open to discussion. They had told you what you had to do and that was that. The comment about they would be happy if you did miss your plane was totally uncalled for.

In the end, I think as travellers, we do have a responsibility for more than just purchasing an air ticket and making a hotel reservation and deciding what clothes and shoes we will wear and whether or not we will wear a bra or not. I think we have an obligation to make ourselves aware of the local customs, laws and procedures to wherever we are travelling. We do not have to like what is or isn't done, but we do have a choice whether we visit a particular place or not.

As for having our pronunciation corrected by the french .... I welcome it. Would you really prefer to go around mis-pronunciating something? And for those who do not bother to correct mis-pronouned english, perhaps you should. And perhaps we should start with our own American youth, many of whomh seem to have some kind of aversion to speaking correct english.

martha

John, I wasn't pointing the finger at you. I suggest people who think I object to having my French corrected read my post more carefully: My point was not that I minded--I didn't--but that people who say "Everyone was polite to me" may just have missed an insult. I'm not trying to encourage paranoia. I'm just saying that a Parisienne told me, when she heard about it, that it had been meant as an insult.
I think I'll stay out of the debate about the merits of correcting other people's language.