Credit card problem
Dec 29th, 2007, 01:08 AM
#21
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There's a huge amount of confusion about all this.
Just about everywhere in Europe that's heavily dependent on tourists from foreign countries accepts the steam-age credit cards American technophobic banks issue.
But there are three kinds of places you're likely to have problems. And they can affect people from other European countries
- automated petrol pumps (and if you think that's a problem, try using any kind of credit card - modern or 18th century - in America if you don't have an American postcode). Earlier this year, I even had this problem at a French manned supermarket pettrol statin pay kiosk. The problem's severest in French supermarkets (esp Leclerc) because of a deeprooted cultutal refusal to invest capital in anything (hence the universal rusty trolleys) escept low prices
- some toll booths, and - bizarrely - some public transport ticket machines
- shops in out of the way places that don't depend on tourists (such as limited assortment discount supermarkets like Aldi or Lidl)
There's no point trying to predict this. And even less ranting about what they "should" do: they're under no obligation to deal with you if they don't want to, and under no commercial pressure to waste money on facilities a trivial minority of customers will ever need.
The problem crops up rarely. Just make sure you've always got €100 on you.
Just about everywhere in Europe that's heavily dependent on tourists from foreign countries accepts the steam-age credit cards American technophobic banks issue.
But there are three kinds of places you're likely to have problems. And they can affect people from other European countries
- automated petrol pumps (and if you think that's a problem, try using any kind of credit card - modern or 18th century - in America if you don't have an American postcode). Earlier this year, I even had this problem at a French manned supermarket pettrol statin pay kiosk. The problem's severest in French supermarkets (esp Leclerc) because of a deeprooted cultutal refusal to invest capital in anything (hence the universal rusty trolleys) escept low prices
- some toll booths, and - bizarrely - some public transport ticket machines
- shops in out of the way places that don't depend on tourists (such as limited assortment discount supermarkets like Aldi or Lidl)
There's no point trying to predict this. And even less ranting about what they "should" do: they're under no obligation to deal with you if they don't want to, and under no commercial pressure to waste money on facilities a trivial minority of customers will ever need.
The problem crops up rarely. Just make sure you've always got €100 on you.
Dec 29th, 2007, 01:22 AM
#22
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UK chip and pin cards (and presumably other non-French c&p cards) are now very widely accepted all over France. Carrefour and Auchan super(hyper)markets even have had their petrol pumps modified to take international (non-French) cards. One thing to bear in mind is that when paying, it normally takes a little longer (up to 30 sec or so) for the transaction to be authorised, so don't take out your card from card reader (or let an impatient staff do so) until 'attendre svp' display vanishes.
Dec 29th, 2007, 02:32 AM
#23
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flanneruk...
I agree with everything you wrote except the phrase technophobic US banks...they are far from technophobic.
What is most important to them is the bottom line and they have done surveys and have come to the conclustion that it would cost more to institute the pin and chip technology than they lose in fraudulent purchases.....and while I agree chip and pin will cut down on fraud at the merchant level, they do nothing about the biggest use of fraudulent credit card numbers namely internet commerce...the chip and pin cards still have to allow their use on the internet without pins...and that's where the big money is being lost.
The eu is in the process of mandating use of chip and pin technology but while they possibly could mandate that only chip and pin cards be accepted, there would be screaming by many countries which have a large tourist trade and as long as the US banks put their profits ahead of the need to synch up with the rest of the world, the present situation will probably continue to exist indefinitely.
I agree with everything you wrote except the phrase technophobic US banks...they are far from technophobic.
What is most important to them is the bottom line and they have done surveys and have come to the conclustion that it would cost more to institute the pin and chip technology than they lose in fraudulent purchases.....and while I agree chip and pin will cut down on fraud at the merchant level, they do nothing about the biggest use of fraudulent credit card numbers namely internet commerce...the chip and pin cards still have to allow their use on the internet without pins...and that's where the big money is being lost.
The eu is in the process of mandating use of chip and pin technology but while they possibly could mandate that only chip and pin cards be accepted, there would be screaming by many countries which have a large tourist trade and as long as the US banks put their profits ahead of the need to synch up with the rest of the world, the present situation will probably continue to exist indefinitely.
Dec 29th, 2007, 02:55 AM
#24
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>..as long as the US banks put their profits ahead of the need to synch up with the rest of the world, ...<
Why would anyone even consider that "synching up" was more important than profits?
When it becomes cost beneficial to do so, the US will adopt whatever it is you guys prefer in the way of measurements, technology, fashion...but not until then.
Why would anyone even consider that "synching up" was more important than profits?
When it becomes cost beneficial to do so, the US will adopt whatever it is you guys prefer in the way of measurements, technology, fashion...but not until then.
Dec 29th, 2007, 04:14 AM
#25
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ira, you forget that many seem to think that banks are just public services and are not businesses trying to make a profit. I'm appalled every time someone whines about a bank charging them 3 or 4 dollars for getting their money to them in a split second when they are in a foreign country thousands of miles away -- and in the local currency. I think that is an amazing service for such a small fee, but realize that most seem to think it should be done for free.
Dec 29th, 2007, 06:35 AM
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Did someone just suggest that German (and other) businesses don't care about making profits? Am I missing something here?
Only the "American way of life" promotes businesses making profit?
Only the "American way of life" promotes businesses making profit?
Dec 29th, 2007, 06:59 AM
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It's the core of "american management ideology" and has been creeping around the planet from there. It has been rather alien to continental european thinking (at least for the last 150 years), but there still are quite a lot of companies over here that do business "the old way".
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:15 AM
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It seems to me that American banks have by-passed the chip and pin by going to debit cards and pin. I use my account at ABN-AMRO in NL when in Europe. My ABN-AMRO Werldpass Maestro card has the chip. It is accepted everywhere.
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:17 AM
#32
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If the "old way" means that German banks do not consider "cost beneficial" before instituting expensive programs, then I am still ROTFLMAO.
You are indeed an idealist, logos.
You are indeed an idealist, logos.
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:25 AM
#33
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Well, the country (my little socialist paradise 
) does well. You realise how different people are once you travel abroad. The "american psyche" is indeed fundamentally different from "ours" even though many people have a similar physical appearance. ;-)
Anyway...
) does well. You realise how different people are once you travel abroad. The "american psyche" is indeed fundamentally different from "ours" even though many people have a similar physical appearance. ;-)Anyway...
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:38 AM
#34
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logos, my point is that Deutschebank never did anything without determining the cost effectiveness of it first. You may choose to believe otherwise if you wish, but you would be wrong. Of course, we all already know that EVERYTHING in the US is BAD and everything in Germany or Europe is GOOD. You've made that clear about a million times. Carry on.
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:39 AM
#35
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but logos friend, there are many things American that have been embraced especially in Germany (although some such as Wal-Mart have indeed flopped).
McDonald's and other fast food places are marvelled at by most Europeans I know for their efficiency (especially in Great Britain where they are jammed with locals as well as Germany)...now we've foisted Subway on Germany and judging from one of your posts you enjoy it as do many other Germans where they are doing well.
In matters of banking, I will agree there are differences....in the USA I just finished a 1 week holiday on the left coast and only once did I have to pay cash for anything...everything else from parking, fast foods, gas, admissions was put on my credit cards...no questions asked, no silly rules about minimums. I could also pretty much do the same thing in the UK now but wouldn't count on it in Germany...cash still seems to rule there.
The blunt fact is, as I said, while I have no doubt chip and pin cards do cut down a bit on fraud at the merchant level, I don't see where it helps with the major theft rings that operate via the internet. A year ago at this time, I got a call from my bank whether I had charnged $8,000 worth of video equipment...I said no...somehow, and I am careful, my number had been compromised, probably in a restaurant. Who ended up eating the $8,000 I don't know.....I didn't.
Rather than the chip and pin technology what would help is for the US restaurant industry to be required to have those little terminals they bring to your table at many places in Europe to pay for meals...obviously required once they adopt chip and pin for the customer to enter his or her pin.
Now that would deter some of the credit card theft.
McDonald's and other fast food places are marvelled at by most Europeans I know for their efficiency (especially in Great Britain where they are jammed with locals as well as Germany)...now we've foisted Subway on Germany and judging from one of your posts you enjoy it as do many other Germans where they are doing well.
In matters of banking, I will agree there are differences....in the USA I just finished a 1 week holiday on the left coast and only once did I have to pay cash for anything...everything else from parking, fast foods, gas, admissions was put on my credit cards...no questions asked, no silly rules about minimums. I could also pretty much do the same thing in the UK now but wouldn't count on it in Germany...cash still seems to rule there.
The blunt fact is, as I said, while I have no doubt chip and pin cards do cut down a bit on fraud at the merchant level, I don't see where it helps with the major theft rings that operate via the internet. A year ago at this time, I got a call from my bank whether I had charnged $8,000 worth of video equipment...I said no...somehow, and I am careful, my number had been compromised, probably in a restaurant. Who ended up eating the $8,000 I don't know.....I didn't.
Rather than the chip and pin technology what would help is for the US restaurant industry to be required to have those little terminals they bring to your table at many places in Europe to pay for meals...obviously required once they adopt chip and pin for the customer to enter his or her pin.
Now that would deter some of the credit card theft.
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:48 AM
#36
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Here's an online article about "chip and pin" - author explains that there are security issues yet to be solved, though both the UK and the French systems has been more or less effective.
http://tinyurl.com/29qa86
Author of this article finds MANY problems with the c&p :
http://www.vigay.com/misc/chipandpin.html
In 2006 Shell Petroleum had to shut down the c&p pads at their UK pumps due to fraud:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4980190.stm
Th article below shows how researchers have createda hack of the system in the UK. Also, they say the system is incompatible with others (in the rest of Europe?)
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6156601.html
I've read that some American cards are already including the chip, but have no evidence at hand. Copnsumers are not the problem - Americans are quite accustomed to entering a pin code when using our bank ATM cards for purchases, and there are few places where entering a pin is not an option at checkout. Does anyone have experience trying to use an ATM card at one of these terminals in Europe or UK? I've read on one site that pins on US cards are not recognized (possibly the absence of that chip.)
As for American banks' reluctance, be assured that it is not technophobia - whether they are looking for the specific technology to improve or for terminals etc to become more affordable to businesses I can't say. But ANYTHING that will compel more customers to use their card rather than someone else's will be tried - when and if it is determined that C&P is the next thing to do that, it will happen. Banks - both in the US and in the EU (as if there is much separating them today) are interested in marketing their products; to the degree that "more secure" is a marketing tool, they'll try anything.
But before excoriating the banks (not that I'm any pal of the credit card purveyors, whose cheap and easy intro rates lure millions of us into dangerous levels of debt) I would ask, for clarification: didn't the change take place in the UK because of government fiat? It wasn't the banks and business who mandated the change, but a legal regulation - isn't that right? But I understand that the vending machine industry is HOT to get the C&P system going, so it could be arriving soon at a ticket kiosk near you.
In any case, the UK system has been going since just 2003, and it seems "not unlikely" that it is still being "perfected" - if perfect security is possible. It's also likely, given the tech marketplace and research speed, that another technology, built on and maybe leapfrogging the C&P and EV systems, is in development.
There are controversial aspects: for one, the switch c&p transfered fraud liability from the credit card issuers to the retailers directly under UK law.
http://tinyurl.com/29qa86
Author of this article finds MANY problems with the c&p :
http://www.vigay.com/misc/chipandpin.html
In 2006 Shell Petroleum had to shut down the c&p pads at their UK pumps due to fraud:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4980190.stm
Th article below shows how researchers have createda hack of the system in the UK. Also, they say the system is incompatible with others (in the rest of Europe?)
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6156601.html
I've read that some American cards are already including the chip, but have no evidence at hand. Copnsumers are not the problem - Americans are quite accustomed to entering a pin code when using our bank ATM cards for purchases, and there are few places where entering a pin is not an option at checkout. Does anyone have experience trying to use an ATM card at one of these terminals in Europe or UK? I've read on one site that pins on US cards are not recognized (possibly the absence of that chip.)
As for American banks' reluctance, be assured that it is not technophobia - whether they are looking for the specific technology to improve or for terminals etc to become more affordable to businesses I can't say. But ANYTHING that will compel more customers to use their card rather than someone else's will be tried - when and if it is determined that C&P is the next thing to do that, it will happen. Banks - both in the US and in the EU (as if there is much separating them today) are interested in marketing their products; to the degree that "more secure" is a marketing tool, they'll try anything.
But before excoriating the banks (not that I'm any pal of the credit card purveyors, whose cheap and easy intro rates lure millions of us into dangerous levels of debt) I would ask, for clarification: didn't the change take place in the UK because of government fiat? It wasn't the banks and business who mandated the change, but a legal regulation - isn't that right? But I understand that the vending machine industry is HOT to get the C&P system going, so it could be arriving soon at a ticket kiosk near you.
In any case, the UK system has been going since just 2003, and it seems "not unlikely" that it is still being "perfected" - if perfect security is possible. It's also likely, given the tech marketplace and research speed, that another technology, built on and maybe leapfrogging the C&P and EV systems, is in development.
There are controversial aspects: for one, the switch c&p transfered fraud liability from the credit card issuers to the retailers directly under UK law.
Dec 29th, 2007, 07:51 AM
#37
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The point isn't banks or restaurants or whatever may be different. That may be as it is or not, who cares about that, right. The point is a entirely different view of how a society works together. It is deemed "socialism" by some and "freedom" by others. The US and Europe exist on different planets. I'm quite sure, it's totally impossible to understand the "other" society and vice versa. It's rather futile, trying to explain the difference.
Dec 29th, 2007, 08:02 AM
#38
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>EVERYTHING in the US is BAD
Yep, everything that constitutes "the american way of life" is indeed bad. Not for the individual, I too like (love) to waste as much of the planets resources. And I'm doing my best to do so, but then it's bad for each and every society on the planet.
Yep, everything that constitutes "the american way of life" is indeed bad. Not for the individual, I too like (love) to waste as much of the planets resources. And I'm doing my best to do so, but then it's bad for each and every society on the planet.
Dec 29th, 2007, 08:06 AM
#39
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logos...
I think you generalize a bit too much comparing American against European viewpoints.
I have many friends who live in London....quite frankly, much to the chagrin of their elders, they tell me all the time there is hardly any difference between life in London (when I visit them) as opposed to life in New York (when they visit me) except for prices....even before the tanking of the US$, prices in New York were almost half of the prices in London for many things...now they tell me a trip to New York and a bit of shopping pays for the trip! But the point is, that life in Britain in many respects has gravitated towards life in the USA...visit a shopping center (or mall) in the UK, and you see exactly what you see in an American mall, like it or not. You have teen age boys running around with baseball caps on backwards, hooded sweatshirts (these have been banned in some malls).....again much to the chagrin of their elders, much of life in Britain has been Americanized (the closeness of the two languages help this also of course)...
While I cannot get the same sense in Germany and France, of course onas has to start out with language differences.
But global technologies are such that all societies are merging towards a more common middle, especially in the West (which is one of the things Fundamentalists in the Middle East claim as one of their reasons for jihad) and the distinctions have begun to blur a bit!
I think you generalize a bit too much comparing American against European viewpoints.
I have many friends who live in London....quite frankly, much to the chagrin of their elders, they tell me all the time there is hardly any difference between life in London (when I visit them) as opposed to life in New York (when they visit me) except for prices....even before the tanking of the US$, prices in New York were almost half of the prices in London for many things...now they tell me a trip to New York and a bit of shopping pays for the trip! But the point is, that life in Britain in many respects has gravitated towards life in the USA...visit a shopping center (or mall) in the UK, and you see exactly what you see in an American mall, like it or not. You have teen age boys running around with baseball caps on backwards, hooded sweatshirts (these have been banned in some malls).....again much to the chagrin of their elders, much of life in Britain has been Americanized (the closeness of the two languages help this also of course)...
While I cannot get the same sense in Germany and France, of course onas has to start out with language differences.
But global technologies are such that all societies are merging towards a more common middle, especially in the West (which is one of the things Fundamentalists in the Middle East claim as one of their reasons for jihad) and the distinctions have begun to blur a bit!
Dec 29th, 2007, 08:11 AM
#40
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Hi logos...
But that's the price we all have to pay for many of the modern convenieces we all enjoy.
And I would never say everything in Germany is bad....I love the beer...I love the trains...I love Munich (despite the fact I can't speak a word of German and always feel out of sorts there)...and from reading some of your posts, I remember you saying something to the effect you loved visiting many places in the USA. (or so I think).
But that's the price we all have to pay for many of the modern convenieces we all enjoy.
And I would never say everything in Germany is bad....I love the beer...I love the trains...I love Munich (despite the fact I can't speak a word of German and always feel out of sorts there)...and from reading some of your posts, I remember you saying something to the effect you loved visiting many places in the USA. (or so I think).
