Bob Brown

From time to time on this Forum, there have been various comments about terrible seating in economy class. Several contributors have commented on the ultra tight seats in the Boeing 777. I commented negatively about the discomfort experienced flying Delta's MD11 to CDG from Atlanta. Now, according to Consumer Reports Travel Letter, the new, long-haul Boeing 737 are even worse when it comes to tight seating. There is one narrow aisle and seats are an inch snugger than the current suggest. Not only are the seats awful, but the rest room ratio is also awful: two lavatories per 150 seats. <BR>On a six hour flight, that could be more than awful. So far no European routes are using these aircraft, but Continental, America West, Delta and Southwest have ordered the new flying sardine cans. Routes as long as Anchorage to Chicago are scheduled -- non stop. So get ready to be shoe-horned in because the airlines love their fuel efficiency and the number of passengers per square foot of cabin space that can be ferried like cattle. <BR> <BR>Perhaps we should all wear slick lycra pants so we can squeeze in and pop out.

rand

I saw a picture of an upcoming double decker airplane. Maybe they will lower the ceilings so that you can't stand up in the aisles. They could hire stewardpersons under 5 feet tall.

Charles

Airlines are businesses with rising labor and fuel costs, and I don't blame them a bit for making these changes. The average person does not pay 'full ticket' price for their flight, and the prices charged through consolidators are hardly enough to cover the (albeit awful) meal, not to mention the expenses incurred by the airline. Perhaps if we were more willing to pay for good service, then we would get it.

norena

<BR>Well Charles, all I can say is if those airlines are paying from $800-$1000 for that (albeit awful) meal they feed us then they need to fire their caterer! <BR> <BR>Not all of us get to take advantage of those cheapie $300 fares to Europe so maybe they should let "us" ride in the planes with larger seats! I feel for $800 or more, we deserve to at least be comfortable on those flying sardine cans. Heck, I think even the people with the cheapie seats deserve comfort, so I sure don't agree with your making excuses for the airlines. They are making enough excuses for themselves. <BR>

Here

Here we go with people against the airlines again. They are NEVER gonna please EVERYONE. No matter what they do for the good, for the bad, they will never have every single person happy! There will ALWAYS be someone complaining even if they had a wonderful experience where nothing had gone wrong!! They would still complain! What about the supermarket or your favorite restaurant and the prices they charge for the food. What about the gas station you goto? and the increases in the gas price? What about your mechanic that screws you everytime you bring your car into his shop purposely breaks something else so you will bring it back to him and he can get you for more money! They are all in business and all want the same thing MONEY! It's a fact of life and NOBODY no matter how small or how big is gonna change this!! So fasten your seat belt, sit back, relax and enjoy the ride or you'll end up dieing young!

Bob Brown

I tell you what, those of you who take the airlines side. YOU ride from here to Munich in a seat so tight that your fanny really does not fit, the leg room is so short that you have to sit with your legs at a 45 - 50 degree angle, and see if you feel so charitable about it! <BR> <BR>I think that is the whole point: <BR>it is impossible to sit back and relax!! <BR>I have figured several times that a marginal increase in seating capacity would result in only a small increase in fare per passenger. I would gladly pay $100 or so more for a couple of extra inches of leg room. <BR> <BR>Get back with me after you fly for 6 hours on one of the new 737s -- with an upset stomach and a toilet to passenger ratio of 2 per 150 passengers!

John

If I had to guess I'd say that the disregard for passenger comfort signified by some airlines' seating specifications will continue, or worsen, until, in that time-tested American way, someone or some group files suit and proves to the satisfaction of a jury that the seats caused unacceptable danger or injury or death. If the script holds, somebody inside the biz will leak a memo to a TV show showing callous disregard for safety, and then the situation will change, boom. Of course we will all pay for the zillion dollar settlement and the reconfiguration and a higher per-seat fuel charge, but our rumps and knees will have more room. Or at least that's my guess. Coffee, tea or tort?

julie

I must say, the seats on airplanes seem ever so much smaller and cramped than they used to, about 50 pounds ago. could it be we are getting larger? All kidding aside, I am always looking for a way to upgrade, use miles, etc, as a transcontinental flight, in BA for example, will put me over the edge. My husband, who is not overweight, takes up his seat, and his sholders and arms flow into my space (not his fault exactly); therefore, without any possibility of movement, my arms, then my legs, go to sleep, head begins to ache, and just when you think you might close your eyes, gets bumpy. Only salvation is to refuse to fly these tight planes--they will get the message. But we can't have it both ways--very cheap but roomy seats. The world is getting smaller folks, and more crowded.

Beth

I don't think this will be an issue that has a "one-size-fits-all" solution. <BR>My thought is that the airlines need to consider adding another class, Comfort class. For those of us willing to pay more for a seat that we can actually be comfortable in. Unless you are a 5'5", size 8 traveler, the current setup on most planes is uncomfortable. I agree with Bob, adding a couple of more inches to the seat size is definitely worth the additional cost. <BR> <BR>Just a comment for Charles: We all have to deal with rising costs no matter what industry we are in. Its no excuse for treating customers this way. There should be some way to insure that a passenger in economy class is at the very least comfortable. And if the airlines can't "afford" to sell those cheapie tickets, then they shouldn't. I don't recall seeing United or AA filing for bankruptcy recently though. I don't think it should matter what section you sit in. The plane is taking everyone to the same destination. Why can't you pay for the "upgrade" in service for first class or business class (champagne, filet minon) and give everyone the same consideration when it comes to seat size? It seems like simple common sense to me.

April

I just want to mention, Beth, that I have been on a plane or two that were excruciatingly uncomfortable and I am only 5'2", size 2 or 4 with possibly the shortest legs in the world. So it would seem that some of these seats are comfortable for no adult. <BR> <BR>I think you are absolutely right that there is "no excuse for treating customers this way," whether some people mind being abused or not. <BR> <BR>As for "if we were more willing to pay for good service" - nobody ever asked me if I wanted the cruddy seats or preferred to pay more for reasonable ones. The problem seems more that "we" are tolerating lousy conditions. <BR> <BR>What would make it simpler for me is if the travel agent could tell me what flights were available and the seating arrangements for each. At least then I would know what I was getting myself into. <BR> <BR>I'm thankful for one thing though - that I don't have to work on those sardine cans. <BR>

Lahti

The contempt exhibited by the airlines toward all but First Class passengers is egregious, and the idea that we'd get better arrangements if "only" we were willing to pay for them is at least as contemptuous -- and wrong! We are being cramped in because they think that: <BR>1. Lining top management's and shareholders' pockets are the first, last, and only reason for an airline's existence. God forbid a CEO should get $1 mil. instead of $3 mil so we can have another inch of space. <BR> <BR>2. 50% of the plane's space should be devoted to the privileged 10% of the passengers, most of whom are traveling on someone else's money. <BR> <BR>3. They can get away with it, so long as the PR department keeps churning out the "we think you'll love our new look." <BR> <BR>As to yet another class? United has already done it and others are following: which means those paying their own way on a budget are going to punished for their failure to have money by being forced to sit in the back of the plane in the most cramped seats yet. <BR> <BR>I wish I thought there would be enough backlash to swing the pendulum back the other way, but it absolutely isn't going to happen. That double-decker plane is my idea of hell. Take the train!

Joanna

Perhaps if aircraft seating was subject to stricter health & safety regulations the seating would be more comfortable. I've been on long haul buses with more comfortable seats than aeroplanes. My mother had to sit all the way from Sydney to Vienna behind a woman who refused to stop reclining her seat, apart from takeoffs and landings. Mum had the 'flu at the same time and was terribly uncomfortable. Now if someone were to sue the airlines for back problems or such like maybe things would change quickly!

hector

I'm sure airlines already know they're seats are uncomfortable. Fact is, if they could have spacier cabins, and be competitive, they would've done so a long time ago. Its not management's fault that our investor society (US ALL) demand more money per investment shares. Ironically, we bring this upon ourselves. If they weren't profitable then investors put their money in other industries and airlines are left without capital. <BR> <BR> Airlines have to concentrate comfort on 'first class' travelers. They represent a huge portion of a flights revenues. It doesn't matter who pays for the ticket. <BR> <BR> One question as far a 'flying etiquette'. On a flight recently from New York to Houston, the gentleman sitting behind me asked to not recline my seat-back. Isn't that there for my comfort? Isn't it my right to recline and get some sleep? Aside from landing and tacking-off, I reclined it anyway. What's the purpose of having reclining seats if you can't recline them?

martha python

Hector, your comfort should not come at the expense of another passenger's. Reclining seats are a holdover from the days when there was a reasonable pitch between rows. They are still useful on night flights, when most people are reclining their seats and there is, as a result, a net balance in the amount of room everyone has. <BR>But if you're putting your seat back on a daytime flight, you're selfish jerk, and if you refuse to put your seat up when politely asked to, you're a rude, selfish jerk.

hector

Martha, <BR> <BR> I guess I'll have to coincide my nap time on airplanes with that of the person behind me? Even if this is the only rest I'll get for a long while? I've literally flown over 100 times and never encountered this situation before. That's why I found it so perplexing. Seeing as though my seat was paid by myself or my company. I'll rest in it as I see fit. I could see if 20 times out of a hundred flights persons complained, or if it was a ridiculously long flight...Hell, even the captain suggested we "recline my seat-back, sit back and relax" <BR> Now, unless the person I back of me has a physical impairment, that's another story, and I'd sacrifice in that situation, but otherwise, I guess I'll continue being a...'rude selfish jerk' :^)

martha python

You paid for *your* seat; you didn't pay for the already-minimal leg room of the poor soul behind you. <BR>

hector

I'm 6'1, why is it that I can live with the person in front of me reclining their seat and catching some sleep, (even if I don't recline mine at that time) yet someone behind me can't offer the same courtesy? <BR> <BR> I paid for 'my' seat and it's limited comfort amenities.

martha p

If you can be comfortable with your seat back up someone's seat reclined into your tell, manly knees, congratulations. <BR>But in that case, why do you need to recline your seat at all?

Louis

I think Bob Brown's comment is that the seating on the new Boeing 777 is ridiculous -- and he's right. At 5'-9" I'm 1" shorter than the "average" American male, and yet my knees touch the back of the seat in front of me. I've been flying for many years now, and my last one from Paris to Chicago on a 777 (thank God I wasn't going to LA) was completely uncomfortable. There are several points I wish to make about this issue: <BR>1. This will only get worse until the flying public vote with their feet and fly less miles. Of course, this will only happen when the economy experiences a significant downturn, or an airline comes along and offers something better (let's not hold our collective breath for the last one). <BR>2. The culprit here isn't profits but "maximizing" them at the expense of passenger comfort. <BR>3. I would pay extra for a so-called "Comfort Class" seat, but how wuch would the airlines charge extra for that? $50? $100? $200? Probably more like $500. <BR>4. If the first class passengers are the ones keeping the airlines in the black, then why is it that on any flight longer than 2 hours the first class section is typically 50% empty? The truth is that the profits come from all of us. <BR>5. One last point: It doesn't make any difference whether one pays $300 or $900 for an "economy" round-trip seat to Europe; you still get the same cramped, lumppy seat in the same suffocatingly overcrowded cabin. How do people get out of those plane crashes, anyway? I guess the breakup of the airplane on impact provides multiple "openings" in the fuselage and solves the problem of exiting an overcrowded passenger compartment for the airline companies.

Miss Manners

goodness, aren't we getting a bit carried away here? Hector, as a very frequent flyer myself, of course you have the right to recline the seat! If the gentleman behind you had a real physical need to not have you "in his face" as it were, he should have checked in early and explained to the airline why he needed the bulkhead (of course, he perhaps couldn't use bulkhead because it wouldn't accomodate his 4 pieces of illegal carryon --- but I digress). The flight was 4 or 5 hours? Of course you needed your space. Again, let's look at the actual culprit Martha: the airlines who have crammed in so many seats rather than charge realistice prices for coach. This of course all goes back to the days of deregulation when big bro, the gov't, probably helped them set correct pricing. And I for one want them to make profits: otherwise they might start laying off mechanics and I might fall down go boom to the ground on one of my too-often flights! <BR>And, as a frequent business flyer up in first class who now does all she can to also fly first class on personal trips of over 2 hrs: I save ALL my frequent flyer miles for the big trips (the other coast or Europe) and never waste them on shorter domestic flights. And, for Beth: I do not do it for steak and champagne, but instead for SEAT SIZE. Like many, I shun alcohol and guzzle water and try my best to sleep, which helps on my arrival in my much anticipated work breaks in new spots. So don't tell me I should pay up big time for the seats (example: almost $7,000/almost 10x the coach price this past summer to France) and sit in the lousy small seats!! <BR>Well, thanks for listening!