Just wondering

Message: There is talk about class systems in the U.S. and in Britain on other threads And it got me wondering: <BR> <BR>Is there a functioning class system in France? <BR> <BR> If there is, is it pretty much as it is in Britain? What are the differences? Is it considered on its way out, or are the French happy with the way things are?

Florence

Oh yes, there is, and it is taken very seriously: <BR> <BR>You've got the aristocracy (upper class), that is divided into a lot of different classes, depending on whether you know what your ancestors were doing a few hundred years ago, whether you still own some parts of the original properties (even a few pieces of 11th century furniture in a nice appartment in the better parts of town will do), whether you were awarded your title before or after Bonaparte, what you do now (the De Broglie, scientists the lot of them, are much better than the d'Estaing, who are politicians), etc. <BR> <BR>The rest of the classes are defined by whether they have "old money" or "new money", where they are educated (Lycée Janson de Sailly in Paris means you're likely to end up in ENA or StCyr, which means you'll end up in the higher political or economical circles). <BR> <BR>Owners of a lot of new money are considered "nouveau riche", less money is "petit bourgeois" (a serious insult, although "grand bourgeois" is a compliment - means old money, good manners), little money but trying to look aristocratic is "BCBG - bon chic bon genre", an insult or a somewhat ironic compliment depending on whether you can hold the rank, etc. . <BR> <BR>At the lowest, of course, you have the working classes, who try to look BCBG as much as they can. <BR> <BR>It's all really very funny. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

topper

ttt

clairobscur

Actually, I don't think there's a real class system. There's a closed and very limited in number aristocraty/haute bourgeoisie. Apart from that, you're defined mostly by what you're doing, and nobody cares what your father, let alone your ancestors did or were.

clairobscur

Though there's nothing like "cockney accent" or things like that, there used to be a "bourgeois"...not exactly accent, but way of speaking. But it isn't very common anymore, possibly because it has been ridiculized so much in various jokes. I used to know a middle-aged woman who spoke like that, and I had to make some effort not to smile...

Marc David Miller

It is certainly not as codified as in England (with a "functioning" aristocracy) but it is there, in a less subtle fashion than in the United States. There are still titled people, although they no longer have privliges. In the 50's-70's members of the Resistance often were in positions of leadership, and of course there were only a limited number of universities from which the leadership graduated (the École Nationale d'Administration being probably the most prominent). <BR> <BR>Incidently, Giscard's father bought the title "d'Estaing" before the War.

traveler

I strongly agree with Florence's take on the subtle but pervasive class awareness in France. It's there and it's quite amusing. The French are, for all their sophistication, quite superficial. They don't quite know what to make of us egalitarian Americans.

Florence

Clair, <BR>The French class system is here, and functionning. What you do is important, how much you make a lot less, but who and where you come from is all. <BR> <BR>I can tell you first hand that you'll be very well received in aristocratic and haute bourgeoisie circles when your ancestors are known and you live in a very old house that could pass as a family heirloom (which by the way we bought for a song a few years ago and we are renovating, no connection with the family), whatever you do for a living or how much money you have, or even what skin color you are. <BR> <BR>Because we come from an old family (who doesn't, by the way?), and mom has that kind of parisian "bourgeois" accent, we are treated as upper class in the circles we live, and it's extremely funny to watch (in addition to being absolutely irrelevant to everyday life). <BR> <BR>Traveler: We perceive Americans as egalitarian in social classes, not in economical classes. <BR> <BR>

clairobscur

M.D. Miller: <BR> <BR>Actually, Giscard didn't "buy" the name of d'Estaing. He was a relative of the family, and the french allow a relative to "ressurect" a name which become extinct. And there's no payment involved. <BR> <BR>Florence : <BR> <BR>I do not doubt that where you come from import in these circles. But they are so limited in number that this issue is irrelevant for the overwhelming majority of the population.

Florence

Clair, the overwhelming majority of the population spend their time trying to find some ancestor they could use in order to enter those circles, however futile and irrelevant to their everyday life those attempts are. It's a matter of being considered as classy, some sort of compensation for an unsatisfying life. However, don't underestimate the influence of the upper class in many small matters: it's easier to get vintage tiles for the renovation of your roof if the marquis de Machintruc, or the son of the ex-admiral de Trucmuche give a good word to the antique materials merchant ... ;-&gt;