Chip and PIN cards
Oct 11th, 2009, 05:33 AM
#21
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I think there are several self evident truths we can all agree on rather than to quarrel with each other...
1. Chip and pin is no cure all. Absolutely not as a major source of credit card fraud is on the internet where chip and pin does not come into play.
2. However chip and pin will cut down on some fraud on the merchant level with stolen and cloned cards where chip and pin is in effect.
3. There will always be credit card fraud. Some of these credit card fraud rings are very sophisticated and if they are really determined, little you can do will prevent it.
4. However, I think we cal all agree there should be one standard for everybody because people travel all over. Right now the lack of chip and pin technology on US cards is probably not the biggest deal in the world. For the most part, the old cards can be used but tell that to somebody driving around on fumes on a Sunday looking for a gas station which takes his magnetic strip card...or perhaps for those who love the idea of renting a bike in Paris and find the rental bike machines only take chip and pin or at an unmanned or unwomaned train station when you can't use the automatic machines which only take chip and pin.
5. Of course the lack of chip and pin in the USA makes the whole USA one of those areas where stolen card numbers can be used to rip off banks and legitemate card holders.
1. Chip and pin is no cure all. Absolutely not as a major source of credit card fraud is on the internet where chip and pin does not come into play.
2. However chip and pin will cut down on some fraud on the merchant level with stolen and cloned cards where chip and pin is in effect.
3. There will always be credit card fraud. Some of these credit card fraud rings are very sophisticated and if they are really determined, little you can do will prevent it.
4. However, I think we cal all agree there should be one standard for everybody because people travel all over. Right now the lack of chip and pin technology on US cards is probably not the biggest deal in the world. For the most part, the old cards can be used but tell that to somebody driving around on fumes on a Sunday looking for a gas station which takes his magnetic strip card...or perhaps for those who love the idea of renting a bike in Paris and find the rental bike machines only take chip and pin or at an unmanned or unwomaned train station when you can't use the automatic machines which only take chip and pin.
5. Of course the lack of chip and pin in the USA makes the whole USA one of those areas where stolen card numbers can be used to rip off banks and legitemate card holders.
Oct 11th, 2009, 06:17 AM
#22
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xyz - cutting down on 'some' fraud does not justify c&p. it must be justified by the costs to implement and run the system and also the costs of no longer having a more or less common, seamless system worldwide from the customer perspective (which has always been an important tenet of the global card system). as stated, the system also makes it worse for european customers when fraud does occur (which is very very regularly under c&p). so it hasn't delivered sufficiently on fraud reduction, but the banks still win because they can easier screw the innocent customer when fraud occurs.
lack of c&p in the usa could open it up for more fraud but the actual facts are against you. fraud is less over there.
the problem is with the card systems that have adopted a system that does not provide sufficient fraud protection, has not justified the costs to implement and run and is less friendly to the customer in many ways.
but strangely, we are still oh so very proud of it!!!
lack of c&p in the usa could open it up for more fraud but the actual facts are against you. fraud is less over there.
the problem is with the card systems that have adopted a system that does not provide sufficient fraud protection, has not justified the costs to implement and run and is less friendly to the customer in many ways.
but strangely, we are still oh so very proud of it!!!
Nov 5th, 2009, 08:03 AM
#23
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I have a chip and pin issued in france and I can't use it to pay for toll, to pay for gas with an unattended terminal, to pay for parking, etc.
The problem that you encounter with your american cards has nothing to do with the chip and pin. It is cause by the inability of the unattended terminal (and some attended terminals) to do an online authorization of your card. So, even if you will get a chip and pin card later on (BIG "IF"), you will still encounter the same problems that I also encounter with my chip and pin French issued VISA smartcard. Almost all out-of-country spend require online authorization, specially if a debit card is used. Some high-end american credit cards (with pin-code) will work, even for small amounts because the card will not require an online authorization.
Read my blog: http://www.finextra.com/community/fullblog.aspx?id=3491
Also, please note that here in Europe, generally we do not use our cards for small purchase amounts. Generally, we pay in cash for anything below 10 euros. Most shops also will not take your card (or mine - which is a chip and pin) if it's less than 10 euros. I think it's only americans that charge even a $1.00 purchase to their credit cards.
Be glad that they check your ID when you use your american cards. Fraudsters do not like american cards since most american cards do not have pin-codes. Even if they can skim the mag-stripe, the only places they can use the clone mag-stripe is with regular stores (attended point of sale systems). So without a pin-code, the fraudster would have to make a legitimate looking card and a fake ID to go along with it.
European chip and pin cards are great targets for fraudsters. Since they are used everywhere and there are soooo many unattended terminals here in Europe that accept chip and pin, fraudsters can cherry pick what unattended terminal they want, implant a skimmer and a pin-code recording device, and voila -they can make a simple white plastic with the cloned magstripe and go to an ATM machine to withdraw money using the white plastic with cloned mag-stripe AND pin-code. Without the pin-code, thieves will rob you of your jewelries, cell phone but will leave your cards with you because they will not be able to use them.
The problem that you encounter with your american cards has nothing to do with the chip and pin. It is cause by the inability of the unattended terminal (and some attended terminals) to do an online authorization of your card. So, even if you will get a chip and pin card later on (BIG "IF"), you will still encounter the same problems that I also encounter with my chip and pin French issued VISA smartcard. Almost all out-of-country spend require online authorization, specially if a debit card is used. Some high-end american credit cards (with pin-code) will work, even for small amounts because the card will not require an online authorization.
Read my blog: http://www.finextra.com/community/fullblog.aspx?id=3491
Also, please note that here in Europe, generally we do not use our cards for small purchase amounts. Generally, we pay in cash for anything below 10 euros. Most shops also will not take your card (or mine - which is a chip and pin) if it's less than 10 euros. I think it's only americans that charge even a $1.00 purchase to their credit cards.
Be glad that they check your ID when you use your american cards. Fraudsters do not like american cards since most american cards do not have pin-codes. Even if they can skim the mag-stripe, the only places they can use the clone mag-stripe is with regular stores (attended point of sale systems). So without a pin-code, the fraudster would have to make a legitimate looking card and a fake ID to go along with it.
European chip and pin cards are great targets for fraudsters. Since they are used everywhere and there are soooo many unattended terminals here in Europe that accept chip and pin, fraudsters can cherry pick what unattended terminal they want, implant a skimmer and a pin-code recording device, and voila -they can make a simple white plastic with the cloned magstripe and go to an ATM machine to withdraw money using the white plastic with cloned mag-stripe AND pin-code. Without the pin-code, thieves will rob you of your jewelries, cell phone but will leave your cards with you because they will not be able to use them.
Nov 5th, 2009, 08:43 AM
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I am in Paris now. Yesterday I was shopping for a terry robe as I had forgotten to pack one. Went to Monoprix on Commerce. They only had long, heavy ones. I wandered the area and found one in a store called Womans Secret. I alawys use CapOne..it would not work and neither would my Amex. Ended up paying cash..it works!
A couple years ago the same thing happened in a small discount store on St. Dominique. Gal said it was a new machine. I don't know if these 2 experiences were that the people did not know how to use them for our 'dumb' cards or if the machine was really not capable of using them. I never have any trouble anyplace else. I know not to use them in above noted places.
Today, in a small store the clerk did ask me for a photo ID..this was a first for me. I do not carry passport with me and leave driver's license home..not driving. I have a copy of passport page that I have now put into my purse.
I think you can say that you may run into places that their machines/clerks may not accept them!
Joan
A couple years ago the same thing happened in a small discount store on St. Dominique. Gal said it was a new machine. I don't know if these 2 experiences were that the people did not know how to use them for our 'dumb' cards or if the machine was really not capable of using them. I never have any trouble anyplace else. I know not to use them in above noted places.
Today, in a small store the clerk did ask me for a photo ID..this was a first for me. I do not carry passport with me and leave driver's license home..not driving. I have a copy of passport page that I have now put into my purse.
I think you can say that you may run into places that their machines/clerks may not accept them!
Joan
Nov 5th, 2009, 08:58 AM
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Checking photo ID is common place in Spain But a copy of any document is not proof. You should carry around your original. Besides in some countries you can be fined by the police for not having the original passport or ID car.
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:04 AM
#28
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gracejoan is correct, there are plenty of places which will not accept magnet strip cards, particularly when someone ventures beyond the well trodden touristic paths of Paris.
EMV cards are not foolproof but they are much more difficult to duplicate than a magnetic strip card and since when has a fake photo ID been difficult to produce. Teenagers have been doing it with Photoshop for some time now.
EMV cards are not foolproof but they are much more difficult to duplicate than a magnetic strip card and since when has a fake photo ID been difficult to produce. Teenagers have been doing it with Photoshop for some time now.
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:47 AM
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Well, the Chip and Pin is spreading. My Canadian CC was renewed with a chip on it.
I tried it in London in May and it worked fine, so the technology is 'universal'. So far in Canada I've used it a couple of times, but since I'm not a big CC user, not sure how widespread the readers are here at home.
I tried it in London in May and it worked fine, so the technology is 'universal'. So far in Canada I've used it a couple of times, but since I'm not a big CC user, not sure how widespread the readers are here at home.
Nov 5th, 2009, 11:55 AM
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We have discussed some of the things in the thread before...I will admit I do not know how universal some of the things are. I do know the following:
MC/Visa merchant agreements in the United States prohibit merchants from setting a minimum for use of a credit card or surcharging credit card sales (although interestingly enough they do allow discounts for cash; somehow the difference between a discount for cash and a credit card surcharge escapes me but I'm kind of dumb I suppose). Now I've been told that UK law prohibits credit card companies from setting up such prohibitions in their merchant agreements. Hence many, but not all, merchants in the UK do have a minimum for use of a credit card. What irks me is not when they say they have a minimum but when there is no sign that says there is a minimum. When I have brought this up, I've been told that, at least in the UK, it is universally accepted that a credit card should not be used for amounts less than £5 or even £10 although many chain stores and fast food places such as Mickey D, Pret a manger, sainsbury's, tesco take credit cards for most any amount..I would assume knowing the eu that such consumer protections we have in the USA might not apply in Europe which in some respects is not as consumer friendly.
Now as for showing ID. Again, the merchant agreements in the USA for visa/mc state that while a merchant may request id to complete a mc/visa transaction, they may not refuse to complete the transaction if the customers does not show id as long as the signature on the card matches the signature on the sales voucher. I suspect again this might not be universal.
Now on this matter, I've had discussions here and on other blogs with people. I will not show identification to use my credit card period. The reason is this....identity theft rings operate on the idea of gathering as much information as possible about a person. Identity theft is a completely different matter than credit card theft. Yes I have had my credit card number compromised a couple of times in the past 25 or 30 years since credit cards became a way of life. What happens is simple. YOu may or may not be informed by your credit card company there is some suspicious activity on your card. But I constantly check online my credit card transactions. If the card is cloned, it is no great problem. The first or second time it happened it was annoying. But, they ask you to indicate which transactions are not yours, they are credited to your account, a new card with a new number is issued and the situation is resolved. You do have, and this is relatively new, to notify the merchants who you have set up direct debit authorizations with such as cable television, utilities, insurance premiums, telephone and other utility bills and that is a bit annoying. But it is not something that is a real big problem. Situation resolved, no harm done.
OTOH if your identify is stolen, well you and I have read all sorts of situations that have occurred and it can be a mess gettingn it resolved. A credit card merchant need not know my driver;s license number, my birthdate, my soc sec number, my address (unless I am arranging to have stuff delivered), my phone number. If you are dealing with a clerk who is in cahoots with those vermin from Eastern Europe or Nigeria (two of the places where identity theft and credit card fraud are big industries), the more information they can steal off your id, the better it is to steal your identify.
Therefore, I as a matter of routine refuse to show my id when using my credit cards and carry around with me the visa/mc regulation on this. I know there are people who write see ID on their signature panels but technically that invalidates the credit card. Besides, quite frankly and I'm not saying this is a good thing, it is very rare in the USA today that any merchant ever looks at the signature panel and tries to match the signature. Not so, I've noticed, in London where with every transaction, the clerk stares at the signature and puts the card next to the signature on the sales slip, not that they've ever said anything.
Now, I don't know if this customer protection also applies outside the USA. But, I've been asked on two occasions in London (at Boots as a matter of fact) that since I don't have a chip and pin card, I have to produce ID and have refused and told them they cannot hold up the transaction if the signature matches. Both times, the clerk called over the manager who told him or her, I forget, to go ahead with the transaction.
I am not saying this to be arrogant or anything like that (I have been known sometimes to be so) but it is my warning to everybody to be careful when showing other ID when using a ccredit card because I believe it is illegal for a merchant to not complete the transaction on that grounds.
MC/Visa merchant agreements in the United States prohibit merchants from setting a minimum for use of a credit card or surcharging credit card sales (although interestingly enough they do allow discounts for cash; somehow the difference between a discount for cash and a credit card surcharge escapes me but I'm kind of dumb I suppose). Now I've been told that UK law prohibits credit card companies from setting up such prohibitions in their merchant agreements. Hence many, but not all, merchants in the UK do have a minimum for use of a credit card. What irks me is not when they say they have a minimum but when there is no sign that says there is a minimum. When I have brought this up, I've been told that, at least in the UK, it is universally accepted that a credit card should not be used for amounts less than £5 or even £10 although many chain stores and fast food places such as Mickey D, Pret a manger, sainsbury's, tesco take credit cards for most any amount..I would assume knowing the eu that such consumer protections we have in the USA might not apply in Europe which in some respects is not as consumer friendly.
Now as for showing ID. Again, the merchant agreements in the USA for visa/mc state that while a merchant may request id to complete a mc/visa transaction, they may not refuse to complete the transaction if the customers does not show id as long as the signature on the card matches the signature on the sales voucher. I suspect again this might not be universal.
Now on this matter, I've had discussions here and on other blogs with people. I will not show identification to use my credit card period. The reason is this....identity theft rings operate on the idea of gathering as much information as possible about a person. Identity theft is a completely different matter than credit card theft. Yes I have had my credit card number compromised a couple of times in the past 25 or 30 years since credit cards became a way of life. What happens is simple. YOu may or may not be informed by your credit card company there is some suspicious activity on your card. But I constantly check online my credit card transactions. If the card is cloned, it is no great problem. The first or second time it happened it was annoying. But, they ask you to indicate which transactions are not yours, they are credited to your account, a new card with a new number is issued and the situation is resolved. You do have, and this is relatively new, to notify the merchants who you have set up direct debit authorizations with such as cable television, utilities, insurance premiums, telephone and other utility bills and that is a bit annoying. But it is not something that is a real big problem. Situation resolved, no harm done.
OTOH if your identify is stolen, well you and I have read all sorts of situations that have occurred and it can be a mess gettingn it resolved. A credit card merchant need not know my driver;s license number, my birthdate, my soc sec number, my address (unless I am arranging to have stuff delivered), my phone number. If you are dealing with a clerk who is in cahoots with those vermin from Eastern Europe or Nigeria (two of the places where identity theft and credit card fraud are big industries), the more information they can steal off your id, the better it is to steal your identify.
Therefore, I as a matter of routine refuse to show my id when using my credit cards and carry around with me the visa/mc regulation on this. I know there are people who write see ID on their signature panels but technically that invalidates the credit card. Besides, quite frankly and I'm not saying this is a good thing, it is very rare in the USA today that any merchant ever looks at the signature panel and tries to match the signature. Not so, I've noticed, in London where with every transaction, the clerk stares at the signature and puts the card next to the signature on the sales slip, not that they've ever said anything.
Now, I don't know if this customer protection also applies outside the USA. But, I've been asked on two occasions in London (at Boots as a matter of fact) that since I don't have a chip and pin card, I have to produce ID and have refused and told them they cannot hold up the transaction if the signature matches. Both times, the clerk called over the manager who told him or her, I forget, to go ahead with the transaction.
I am not saying this to be arrogant or anything like that (I have been known sometimes to be so) but it is my warning to everybody to be careful when showing other ID when using a ccredit card because I believe it is illegal for a merchant to not complete the transaction on that grounds.
Nov 5th, 2009, 12:07 PM
#32
Interesting that you would refuse to show ID, because my American nephew was just visiting me, and we almost got in trouble when he wanted to pay for a tank of gas.
I filled the tank and drove to the Carrefour cashier, and he handed over his card. The cashier saw that it didn't have a chip, so she ran it through the strip reader but became very upset because it was not signed.
He told me "I never sign my cards, because the machine says 'ask for ID' in such a case". He is a lawyer, by the way. Anyway, the cashier let us off the hook, because I looked honest (ha ha), but he did sign his cards for future use.
I filled the tank and drove to the Carrefour cashier, and he handed over his card. The cashier saw that it didn't have a chip, so she ran it through the strip reader but became very upset because it was not signed.
He told me "I never sign my cards, because the machine says 'ask for ID' in such a case". He is a lawyer, by the way. Anyway, the cashier let us off the hook, because I looked honest (ha ha), but he did sign his cards for future use.
Nov 6th, 2009, 12:52 AM
#33
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why would you refuse to show id in Boots fgs...you're not arrogant, you're just bone-headed. the till assistant was only doing his/her job and i'm sure all those punters rushing to get things done during their lunch hour and standing in a queue behind you were really impressed with your assertion of rights.
Nov 6th, 2009, 04:09 AM
#34
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I will repeat.....I do not show my ID to anybody except the police. While the chances are the clerk at Boots is one of those vermin who steal credit card numbers as well as other facts bout customers to feed to the identity theft rings, this indeed is one way that identity theft occurs. Read my post about identity theft. I have in my wallet the statement directly from the mastercard web site. To repeat what it says, while a merchant may ask for identification (so the clerk was just doing his job true) no mastercard transaction can be refused if the customers refuses to allow hmself to have his identity stolen oops if the customers refuses to comply. If the signature on the sales slip matches the signature on the credit card, the merchant is obligated to complete the transaction.
I am only asking the merchant to follow the rules for my protection!
I am only asking the merchant to follow the rules for my protection!
Nov 6th, 2009, 05:07 AM
#35
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Directly from the mastercard web site:
A merchant must not refuse to complete a MasterCard card transaction solely because a cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment of a card at the POI [point of interaction] refuses to provide additional identification information, except as specifically permitted or required by the Standards. A merchant may require additional identification from the cardholder if the information is required to complete the transaction, such as for shipping purposes.
I think that's very clear, don't you?
A merchant must not refuse to complete a MasterCard card transaction solely because a cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment of a card at the POI [point of interaction] refuses to provide additional identification information, except as specifically permitted or required by the Standards. A merchant may require additional identification from the cardholder if the information is required to complete the transaction, such as for shipping purposes.
I think that's very clear, don't you?
Nov 6th, 2009, 06:16 AM
#37
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kerouac...
I made the pont that I understand different strokes for different folks so to speak. This, however, is a mastercard regulation. It is not a Mastercard US regulation to the best of my knowledge. Even in the USA, there are some states that don't understand why such a regulation exists for the benefit of the consumer and have passed laws prohibiting mastercard from enforcing this rule.
But why anybody would want to produce additional id and give identity thieves some extra info is beyond me. Instead of just reacting, please read what is written. If you or anybody else who wants to put their identity up for grabs wishes to write see ID on a credit card (BTW that invalidates the credit card but why let the facts get in the way of a good story)or to allow a clerk to see their driver's license number or phone number is beyond me....again theft of a credit card number, while disconcerting, is not really a big deal. A couple of phone calls, a few check marks on an affadavit and the situation is easily rectified. Identity theft is a completely different matter.
There is no need to be nasty. I recognize the fact that different countries might have different rules but let me repeat, the above is from a Mastercard international web site, it is an international rule of mastercard. It is not a US regulation. Now if you want to tell me English law prohibits Mastercard from enforcing this rule, please point it out to me without trying to be nasty.
I made the pont that I understand different strokes for different folks so to speak. This, however, is a mastercard regulation. It is not a Mastercard US regulation to the best of my knowledge. Even in the USA, there are some states that don't understand why such a regulation exists for the benefit of the consumer and have passed laws prohibiting mastercard from enforcing this rule.
But why anybody would want to produce additional id and give identity thieves some extra info is beyond me. Instead of just reacting, please read what is written. If you or anybody else who wants to put their identity up for grabs wishes to write see ID on a credit card (BTW that invalidates the credit card but why let the facts get in the way of a good story)or to allow a clerk to see their driver's license number or phone number is beyond me....again theft of a credit card number, while disconcerting, is not really a big deal. A couple of phone calls, a few check marks on an affadavit and the situation is easily rectified. Identity theft is a completely different matter.
There is no need to be nasty. I recognize the fact that different countries might have different rules but let me repeat, the above is from a Mastercard international web site, it is an international rule of mastercard. It is not a US regulation. Now if you want to tell me English law prohibits Mastercard from enforcing this rule, please point it out to me without trying to be nasty.
