China Towns?
Nov 9th, 2009, 09:03 AM
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China Towns?
Somewhat recently told me that Venice has a booming China Town - but it is in Mestre, the workaday part of Venice on the mainland. Can anyone confirm that?
And i enjoy visiting China Towns wherever they are. I know of a big one in Paris - around the Place d'Italie and one in London's Soho but i cannot think of any others i am familiar with.
What other booming China Towns are there in Europe? I am not talking about ethnic areas that each large city seems to have but authentic China Towns.
thanks
And i enjoy visiting China Towns wherever they are. I know of a big one in Paris - around the Place d'Italie and one in London's Soho but i cannot think of any others i am familiar with.
What other booming China Towns are there in Europe? I am not talking about ethnic areas that each large city seems to have but authentic China Towns.
thanks
Nov 9th, 2009, 10:21 AM
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What do you mean by Chinatowns?
Restaurant enclaves in city centres (and therefore high rent), with limited nearby accommodation for (mostly semi-legal) Chinese migrants, but no real history of Chinese living there - which is what you get in south Soho?
Or a traditional ghetto for Chinese residents, which is what you get in Europe's oldest Chinatown? Obviously, like most pioneering European social innovations of the past 150 years, located in Liverpool. Problem is, of course, as they get on they move out - so the area defaults back to a theme park restaurant enclave in a low-rent area with a bloody great enormous Dragon Gate, a few OKish eateries and a lot of the poorest (so therefore Somali) current migrant wave.
Restaurant enclaves in city centres (and therefore high rent), with limited nearby accommodation for (mostly semi-legal) Chinese migrants, but no real history of Chinese living there - which is what you get in south Soho?
Or a traditional ghetto for Chinese residents, which is what you get in Europe's oldest Chinatown? Obviously, like most pioneering European social innovations of the past 150 years, located in Liverpool. Problem is, of course, as they get on they move out - so the area defaults back to a theme park restaurant enclave in a low-rent area with a bloody great enormous Dragon Gate, a few OKish eateries and a lot of the poorest (so therefore Somali) current migrant wave.
Nov 9th, 2009, 10:50 AM
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Well it is Amsterdam China Town - mostly Chinese/Indonesian Chinese businesses and the restaurants are the nearest to real Chines food you;ll get in the Netherlands. There is a Taiwanese Buddhist temple there, which is in fact the biggest traditional Chinese style temple in Europe.
Ok it's not up to San Francisco but it is a genuine Chinese area of the city, not something made up for the tourists. The Binnen Bantammerstraat used to be the centre of it, filled with restaurants and opium dens and the Chinese maffia, but the city clamped down on it and it only has a couple of Chinese restaurants now, and has become a bit trendy. Some of the restaurants moved to the Zeedijk. It has been cleaned up a lot - no more opium dens and maffia, or at least not quite so blatant as in the past.
Street names are in Dutch and Chinese in the area, including on the Nieuwemarkt.
There have been plans to move it to the Oosterdokskade and make it more touristy, but thankfully so far nothing has happened.
You should try to be there for Chinese New year.
Ok it's not up to San Francisco but it is a genuine Chinese area of the city, not something made up for the tourists. The Binnen Bantammerstraat used to be the centre of it, filled with restaurants and opium dens and the Chinese maffia, but the city clamped down on it and it only has a couple of Chinese restaurants now, and has become a bit trendy. Some of the restaurants moved to the Zeedijk. It has been cleaned up a lot - no more opium dens and maffia, or at least not quite so blatant as in the past.
Street names are in Dutch and Chinese in the area, including on the Nieuwemarkt.
There have been plans to move it to the Oosterdokskade and make it more touristy, but thankfully so far nothing has happened.
You should try to be there for Chinese New year.
Nov 9th, 2009, 11:19 AM
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hetismij - when i was taking folks on tours we always ate a Rijstaffel on Binnen Bantammerstraat - the Asi or some such name - i will have to go back and trek around this Dec - thanks for the info.
What do you mean by Chinatowns?> The one in Paris for example, around Place d'Italie - many restaurants, food stores - Chinese thru and thru
What do you mean by Chinatowns?> The one in Paris for example, around Place d'Italie - many restaurants, food stores - Chinese thru and thru
Nov 9th, 2009, 10:43 PM
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"There is a large Chinese population in Prato"
But there's no Chinatown there that I've seen. The population is extraordinary (two years ago, it was locally claimed that 30% of births in Prato were to Chinese mothers). But hardly any have moved into the consumer-facing businesses (like restaurants or laundries) that Chinese migrants to English-speaking countries adopted in the early to mid-20th century. Instead, they mostly own, or provide cheap labour for, local garment factories (which, almost uniquely in Western Europe, still operate because they combine low wage costs with a buyer perception of Italian quality). In Mestre, the Chinese community seems over-represented in hotel management and in the garment and leather goods industries - but I've never come across any kind of Chinatown.
That's why I'm asking PalQ to define what he means by a Chinatown. The Chinese don't have some genetic peculiarity that gets them to live in highly Chineseified city-centre restaurant districts while other poor migrants live invisibly in low-rent fringe slums, or that makes them able to earn a living only through restaurants and food stores. San Francisco and New York were unique responses to a particular environment at a particular time.
Those circumstances change. Sometimes there's an attempt to create fake Chinatowns - but they scarcely ever work: Portlands's tedious one has fewer Chinese restaurants than a High Street in an all-white British suburb.
The idea there's such a thing as an "authentic" Chinatown is just silly.
But there's no Chinatown there that I've seen. The population is extraordinary (two years ago, it was locally claimed that 30% of births in Prato were to Chinese mothers). But hardly any have moved into the consumer-facing businesses (like restaurants or laundries) that Chinese migrants to English-speaking countries adopted in the early to mid-20th century. Instead, they mostly own, or provide cheap labour for, local garment factories (which, almost uniquely in Western Europe, still operate because they combine low wage costs with a buyer perception of Italian quality). In Mestre, the Chinese community seems over-represented in hotel management and in the garment and leather goods industries - but I've never come across any kind of Chinatown.
That's why I'm asking PalQ to define what he means by a Chinatown. The Chinese don't have some genetic peculiarity that gets them to live in highly Chineseified city-centre restaurant districts while other poor migrants live invisibly in low-rent fringe slums, or that makes them able to earn a living only through restaurants and food stores. San Francisco and New York were unique responses to a particular environment at a particular time.
Those circumstances change. Sometimes there's an attempt to create fake Chinatowns - but they scarcely ever work: Portlands's tedious one has fewer Chinese restaurants than a High Street in an all-white British suburb.
The idea there's such a thing as an "authentic" Chinatown is just silly.
Nov 10th, 2009, 12:23 AM
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ugh. Everyone else's ideas are "bullshit, crap, silly, ridiculous" and just one person knows everything on this forum, right? Boo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatowns_in_Europe
Liverpool's Imperial Arch
http://www.visitliverpool.com/site/chinese-arch-p54681
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatowns_in_Europe
Liverpool's Imperial Arch
http://www.visitliverpool.com/site/chinese-arch-p54681
Nov 10th, 2009, 06:06 AM
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Palenque - I would like to know if you have only 'heard' there is a large "Chinatown" around Place de Italie or have you actually been there?
The reason I ask is because we go to the "Chinatown" much further down in the vacinity of the Metro Porte de Choissy on Boulevard Massena. From that metro you walk up Ave de Choissy - not very far, and you will be surrounded by Chinese and Asian style shops and restaurants cheek by jowl.
Correct me if I'm wrong Kerouac, but aren't there five seperate enclaves of "Chinatowns" in Paris. I've been to the one in Belleville also but believe there is the oldest Chinese community right in the heart of Paris's 3rd arrondessement.
Like you Palenque, I love "Chinatowns" and absolutely adore Chinese cuisine. I'm beginning to think I eat more Chinese meals in Paris than any other!
The reason I ask is because we go to the "Chinatown" much further down in the vacinity of the Metro Porte de Choissy on Boulevard Massena. From that metro you walk up Ave de Choissy - not very far, and you will be surrounded by Chinese and Asian style shops and restaurants cheek by jowl.
Correct me if I'm wrong Kerouac, but aren't there five seperate enclaves of "Chinatowns" in Paris. I've been to the one in Belleville also but believe there is the oldest Chinese community right in the heart of Paris's 3rd arrondessement.
Like you Palenque, I love "Chinatowns" and absolutely adore Chinese cuisine. I'm beginning to think I eat more Chinese meals in Paris than any other!
Nov 10th, 2009, 06:58 AM
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That's why I'm asking PalQ to define what he means by a Chinatown>
Well the one i saw around Place d'Italie in Paris - tod i'll have to pin down the location - it could be arond Pte de Choissy metro, but it was several blocks of only Chinese stores, markets, restaurants, etc. - Like being in a Chinese country.
by a China Town i am meaning not one where lots of Chinese live necessarily but a place where the Chinese community gathers and one which is all Chinese in its businesses.
I;ve seen a smattering of Chinese establishments opposite Pere Lachaise western side - a McDonald's with Chinese lettering
Well the one i saw around Place d'Italie in Paris - tod i'll have to pin down the location - it could be arond Pte de Choissy metro, but it was several blocks of only Chinese stores, markets, restaurants, etc. - Like being in a Chinese country.
by a China Town i am meaning not one where lots of Chinese live necessarily but a place where the Chinese community gathers and one which is all Chinese in its businesses.
I;ve seen a smattering of Chinese establishments opposite Pere Lachaise western side - a McDonald's with Chinese lettering
Nov 10th, 2009, 07:00 AM
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The 13th arrondissement of Paris is one of the 20 arrondissements (administrative districts) of the capital city of France. Situated on the Left Bank of the River Seine, it is home to Paris's main Chinatown.
This is the Chinatown of Paris i am talking about - now what is a Chinatown - well go there and you'll see. Wiki has little problem defining a Chinatown - same as me where things are Chinese thru and thru
This is the Chinatown of Paris i am talking about - now what is a Chinatown - well go there and you'll see. Wiki has little problem defining a Chinatown - same as me where things are Chinese thru and thru
Nov 10th, 2009, 10:41 AM
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Yawn.
No, I don't care to step into your trap, flanner.
I am so tired of your bitter negativity, demanding tone, and condescending ways of writing to people on this forum. Oh but what's news?
This thread could actually be a useful thread. I like the idea of exchanging information about where Chinatowns in Europe are -- this is something that I've been wondering about as well. Thank you Palanque for starting this thread.
There's no need to define Chinatown. Like Palenque said, go there and you'll see.
If anyone likes Vietnamese pho:
Le Bambou
70, Rue Baudricourt, 75013 Paris
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&...8&z=14&iwloc=A
Pretty good HK/Cantonese cuisine, open late when most of the other restaurants in the 13th are closed:
Fleurs de Mai
61 av Choisy, 75013 Paris
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=i...ed=0CBIQtgMwAA
I think the dim sum in London is the best outside of NY/SF/LA/Asia. Very authentic to my taste buds.
No, I don't care to step into your trap, flanner.
I am so tired of your bitter negativity, demanding tone, and condescending ways of writing to people on this forum. Oh but what's news?
This thread could actually be a useful thread. I like the idea of exchanging information about where Chinatowns in Europe are -- this is something that I've been wondering about as well. Thank you Palanque for starting this thread.
There's no need to define Chinatown. Like Palenque said, go there and you'll see.
If anyone likes Vietnamese pho:
Le Bambou
70, Rue Baudricourt, 75013 Paris
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&...8&z=14&iwloc=A
Pretty good HK/Cantonese cuisine, open late when most of the other restaurants in the 13th are closed:
Fleurs de Mai
61 av Choisy, 75013 Paris
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=i...ed=0CBIQtgMwAA
I think the dim sum in London is the best outside of NY/SF/LA/Asia. Very authentic to my taste buds.
Nov 11th, 2009, 09:35 AM
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Yes, Palenque - I think you must have walked down to Choissy but I will have another look next year and see whats around Place d'Italie. Could be very much the same as lower down.
Hey! Please go down to Blvd Massena and ride one of those new modern style trolley buses- great fun!
Hey! Please go down to Blvd Massena and ride one of those new modern style trolley buses- great fun!
Nov 11th, 2009, 09:42 AM
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tod - the reason i was in the area was to ride the new tram (not trolley bus but a train-like tram rolling on rails) that rolls down the Blvd Massena for 3-4 miles - i am a rail/tram nut - the tram in the middle of the road gives Paris a different look - sleek modern low-floor trams. I think we are talking about the same Chinatown - i meant Place d'Italie in general, the area. And in this area on the south side of Blvd Massena is the campus of the Cite U - a university of Paris campus known for its architecture in the buildings, each reflecting a certain country - some famous architects are represented - perhaps Corbusier?
Nov 11th, 2009, 09:28 PM
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Quite right Palenque - it is definitely a tram! And indeed, we are talking about the same Chinatown. Kerouac pointed us to a delightful restaurant called La Lune where we enjoyed a delightful dinner for around 10euros.
Our initial introduction to this area was from Place d'Italie and the very long walk down Avenue D'Italie. At first I was disappointed but after walking along Blvd Massena and arriving at Ave de Choisy we hit the jackpot!
This next trip planned for end July and end August 2010 I want to discover exactly where the Chinese community is located in the 3rd arr.
If you haven't been to the chinese eateries around Place de Torcy, do go. We favoured Tin Tin with a 3 course menu for 8 euros. Metro stop Marx Dormoy.
Our initial introduction to this area was from Place d'Italie and the very long walk down Avenue D'Italie. At first I was disappointed but after walking along Blvd Massena and arriving at Ave de Choisy we hit the jackpot!
This next trip planned for end July and end August 2010 I want to discover exactly where the Chinese community is located in the 3rd arr.
If you haven't been to the chinese eateries around Place de Torcy, do go. We favoured Tin Tin with a 3 course menu for 8 euros. Metro stop Marx Dormoy.
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:43 AM
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I was under the impression that Manchester had the UK's second largest Chinatown after London. (Not sure how that's defined - by population or extent.) It's pretty central - the Dragon Gate is between Picadilly and Deansgate if I recall correctly. However certainly not informed enough to comment on its authenticity or not - though the food I ate was certainly enjoyable!
Dr D.
Dr D.
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:53 AM
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Tod, would love to get names of Chinese restaurants you've enjoyed in Paris, whether in a Chinatown or by themselves. My husband MUST have Chinese food every several days while dining on my preferred bistro food, or he stages a rebellion. Since I'll be eating Chinese food one way or another, it might as well be good rather than bad. Thanks for any recs you can pass along.
Nov 12th, 2009, 05:04 AM
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Hi Julie, it would be my pleasure to list my Chinese restaurants for you! They are all affordable but the address will tell you whether a meal would cost more, or less.
DRAGONS ELYSEES, 11 rue de Berri, Off Champs Elysees.
http://tinyurl.com/ydze6xw
METRO BELLEVILLE, 11eme: The street radiating out from this station are the Northern headquarters for Asian cuisine. Whether at an unassuming little spot or large Chinese-style
Brasserie, you can slurp down noodle soup at any hour of the day and late into the night.
HALONG, 5 Rue de la Presentation, Belleville.
Recommended by Kerouac.
DONG HUONG, (opp.Halong) rue de la Presentation.
TIN TIN, 17 rue Louis Bonnet,19eme. Metro Belleville
http://tinyurl.com/yjo6pbu
LA LOCOMOTIVE, 18eme: 25 Rue de Torcy & Rue Martinique,
Metro; Marx Dormoy.
http://en.nomao.com/7317198.html
TIN TIN, Place de Torcy, 18eme. Marx Dormoy metro.
NEW THAISAN, 44 rue de Torcy, 18eme.
SHUJUKU, 35 rue de Torcy. Japanese.
HANOUMIAM, 36 rue de Torcy.
LA MAISON THAI, 2 rue de L'Evangile, 18eme. Tiny.Metro Marx Dormoy.
CHINATOWN
LA LUNE, 36 Ave de Choisy, 13eme - Metro; Porte de Choisy. Recc.by Kerouac.
TRICOTIN, Ave.de Choisy. Very large, off-hand service.
OLYMPIADES VILLAGE, 65 Ave. d'Ivry, Metro Olympiades.Also access from Rue de Tolbiac -metro Tolbiac.
Some restaurants inside.
LARGE CHINESE RESTAURANT (name?) 44 Ave. d'Ivry. Seats 600,orchestra Saturday nights.
ELYSEES HONG KONG' 80 rue Michel-Ange, Metro;Exelmans.
http://tinyurl.com/y88ewd8
PALACE THAI, 23 Ave Duquesne, 7eme.
http://tinyurl.com/yly9n9k
LOTUS DE CHINE, 26 rue de Montessuy, 7eme.
CHEZ MING, 6 rue de Montessuy, 7eme.
http://tinyurl.com/ydtfckq
A SELECTION BY OTHERS:http://tinyurl.com/y86x3ao
DRAGONS ELYSEES, 11 rue de Berri, Off Champs Elysees.
http://tinyurl.com/ydze6xw
METRO BELLEVILLE, 11eme: The street radiating out from this station are the Northern headquarters for Asian cuisine. Whether at an unassuming little spot or large Chinese-style
Brasserie, you can slurp down noodle soup at any hour of the day and late into the night.
HALONG, 5 Rue de la Presentation, Belleville.
Recommended by Kerouac.
DONG HUONG, (opp.Halong) rue de la Presentation.
TIN TIN, 17 rue Louis Bonnet,19eme. Metro Belleville
http://tinyurl.com/yjo6pbu
LA LOCOMOTIVE, 18eme: 25 Rue de Torcy & Rue Martinique,
Metro; Marx Dormoy.
http://en.nomao.com/7317198.html
TIN TIN, Place de Torcy, 18eme. Marx Dormoy metro.
NEW THAISAN, 44 rue de Torcy, 18eme.
SHUJUKU, 35 rue de Torcy. Japanese.
HANOUMIAM, 36 rue de Torcy.
LA MAISON THAI, 2 rue de L'Evangile, 18eme. Tiny.Metro Marx Dormoy.
CHINATOWN
LA LUNE, 36 Ave de Choisy, 13eme - Metro; Porte de Choisy. Recc.by Kerouac.
TRICOTIN, Ave.de Choisy. Very large, off-hand service.
OLYMPIADES VILLAGE, 65 Ave. d'Ivry, Metro Olympiades.Also access from Rue de Tolbiac -metro Tolbiac.
Some restaurants inside.
LARGE CHINESE RESTAURANT (name?) 44 Ave. d'Ivry. Seats 600,orchestra Saturday nights.
ELYSEES HONG KONG' 80 rue Michel-Ange, Metro;Exelmans.
http://tinyurl.com/y88ewd8
PALACE THAI, 23 Ave Duquesne, 7eme.
http://tinyurl.com/yly9n9k
LOTUS DE CHINE, 26 rue de Montessuy, 7eme.
CHEZ MING, 6 rue de Montessuy, 7eme.
http://tinyurl.com/ydtfckq
A SELECTION BY OTHERS:http://tinyurl.com/y86x3ao
