Belgium is one place where it really helps to know both the local names for a town.

I recall driving in Belgium years ago trying to get to Leuven. I got terribly lost and highway signs kept directing me to some town called Louvain.

"Belgium being bilingual, I presume that trains/roads would be marked with both Bruges and Brugge."

In the French speaking part, cities are named in their French-spelling, in the Dutch/Flamish speaking part, cities are named in their Dutch-spelling. And since 'both sides of the language border' are very proud of their own language, most cities are only marked according to the language spoken there.

Only cities where there is a possibility for confusion; like Mons/Bergen, Tournai/Doornik, both names are used.

Another exception is Brussel/Bruxelles. Since this city is officially bi-langual (in-offically most people speak Frecnh).

Since Brugge is in the Flemish/Dutch speaking part, it is best to refer to it with it's Dutch-name.

In Belgian Flanders, except for the autoroute (autosnelweg), all of the signs indicating the direction of the nearby city of Lille are marked Rijsel.

<<Belgium being bilingual, I presume that trains/roads would be marked with both Bruges and Brugge>>

Not necessarily. In Flanders (or Vlaanderen for those who wish to be precise), the road signs are only in Flemish (Vlaams), while in Wallonia (Wallonie), the signs are only in French (français). In the Brussels/Brussel/Bruxelles area, the signs are bilingual.
For example, driving out of Brussels to Mons, the signs will point to Mons/Bergen. While passing through Flanders, the signs change to Bergen, and then back to Mons when in Wallonia. I can't vouch for this, but I do seem to recall than signs for Lille, France read Rijsel in Flanders.


I first learned this many years ago when driving from Germany to Antwerp via Liège. While in Germany (Deutschland), the signs pointed to Lüttich, then entering Belgium/Belgie/Belgique they changed to Luik, then finally to Liège. Meanwhile, the signs for Antwerpen changed to Anvers, and I almost missed my turn.

Moral of the story--if there is an accepted English version of a place-name, use it when speaking or writing in English. When speaking another language, use the accepted term in that language.

The exception might be Belgium, where linguistic divisions are so intense, that an English speaker might well be advised to use the Flemish or French version as appropriate.

" And since 'both sides of the language border' are very proud of their own language, most cities are only marked according to the language spoken there."

Thank you, that is quite interesting and shows how wrong I can be when I make assumptions.

Maybe this is testament to how Belgium has managed to remain slightly less trampled by tourists ... we can't find it!

tomassocroccante wrote: "Maybe this is testament to how Belgium has managed to remain slightly less trampled by tourists ... we can't find it!"

Apart from Bruges! I quite liked a number of other places in Belgium that, I think, have fewer tourists than they might merit: Ghent, Antwerp, Louvain, Ypres.

Even if you don't speak the local language I think you should make the effort to pronounce place names as they are known locally. This is not hard to do. I fail to see how someone of average intelligence can't learn and remember, with about 5 seconds of effort, that Roma is Rome. The Firenze/Florence train idenitification example is a great one. If people are advised to not "bother" with "referring" to places using their local names, they are being advised to create problems for themselves.

Would you refer to a French man as "Jack" instead of "Jacques", or "Alan instead of "Alain" simply because you didn't want to confuse those hearing you? That would be insulting and presumes that everyone should just accept that unilingual English (or other language) speakers can't be bothered to try and respect the cultures of others.

I think the evidence is clear that people genuinely appreciate attempts at speaking their language, however butchered the result might be. Sure, they will almost always respond in English if they can, but that is no reason to abandon the attempt.

Frankly, I am embarassed that I have about 10% of the language skills of the average European - and I am passable in basic French and plodding in German. I consider it an honour that people who are not native English speakers have made the effort to learn my language (and probably others) and I am going to try and let them know that in the ways I am able.

The attitude that "They all speak English anyway" or "They know what I mean" is very sad.

Aramis, you're completely missing the point. No one here is suggesting that when conversing with the locals IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE you wouldn't use the local pronunciation. If I'm speaking French, I will say 'paree' not Paris. The point is that you don't 'mix' languages. If you are speaking english, use the english pronunciation. Using the pronunciation or name of the language you're conversing in is standard practice and avoids both confusion and pretension.

There is a difference between doing your best to pronounce local place names that do not have a foreign equivalent and the major cities of the world that have gained enough prominence to have an adapted name in other languages. Rather than an insult, I see it as a legitimate claim to fame, dating back usually 500 years or more.

It makes a lot more sense than trying to be a total purist and pronouncing every name as the locals do. If so, better get started on the local names of Bangkok, Cairo and Shanghai.

Later, if you are American, let's fix the pronunciation of Des Moines, Détroit, Coeur d'Alène, Saint Louis, Amarillo, Montpelier and a few others to get them back the way they were meant to be.

The film I quote on these pages most is David Lean's "Summertime" , starring Katherine Hepburn and Rosanno Brazzi (written by Arthur Laurents)

When jane Hudson meets fellow Americans, the McIlhennys, onboard a Vaporetto in Venice, Mrs. McIlhenny says that from Venice they will go to Florence, or "Firenzay, that's the name the Italians have given it. Then Rome - Roma, Naples - Napoli, then home!"

Reminds me of the great monologue by Dorothy Draper, in which she speaks as an American tourist visiting an Italian church with her friends. At one point a little urchin has approached them, and she says something like, "oh, she's so young and yet she speaks Italian so beautifully!"

<<Would you refer to a French man as "Jack" instead of "Jacques", or "Alan instead of "Alain" simply because you didn't want to confuse those hearing you? That would be insulting and presumes that everyone should just accept that unilingual English (or other language) speakers can't be bothered to try and respect the cultures of others.>>

Well, it appears that the coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Michel Therrien, is now being referred to as Michael, because too many Americans regard Michel as a woman's name!

Ditto "Patrice" (though the French also use Patrick).

And we've feminized Andrea, too, the Italian Andrew.

In terms of other first names, as long as the spelling is the same (or almost the same), I have never seen English speakers make an effort to pronounce the name as the French do, nor would I expect them to.
Witness how they say --

Charles de Gaulle
Georges Pompidou
Catherine Deneuve
Gérard Depardieu
Audrey Tautou

Then there is the apocryphal story of the BBC announcer who pronounced Lenny's name as
"Lay-o-nard Bairn-shtein"

Must have been a French BBC announcer!

We all get trapped. I have a nice big geographical dictionary, (Websters) that gives se-ViL as the English pronunciation, and sa-BE-ya as Spanish.

I often want a good gazeteer for business and surnames.

Then there are the traps:

Robert Henri, the American painter, was born Robert Henry Cozad (his family founded Cozad Nebraska). Possibly due to a dark family scandal, he dropped his last name. But was the change of "y" to "i" meant to make this American impressionist seem more ... French? Either way, I pronounce his name HENRY.

P says,

>> "It is either Brugge or Bruges, but it ain't Brugges."

Ant it ain't Brugge when you are writing in English. <

"Bruges" is an English word?

Do I have to call Livorno "Leghorn"?

If I go to Cairo, Egypt, do I have to pronounce it as in Cairo, IL?

I recognize that there are many place names that have been Anglicized, Americanized, Canadianated and Strinified, but when did Bruges become the official English name, and who so promulgated it?
..................................
I side with Ar, who says,
>I completely disagree with your comment about not trying to pronounce the name of places ( or anything else for that matter) in the local language.<

Tourist: We just got back from Italy.

Friend: Oh, did you visit Roma, Firenze and Venezia?

Tourist: No. We only had time for Rome, Florence and Venice.

On that occasion, I was the friend
.................................
An asks,

> I wonder how many people know how to pronouce 'gouda' as the Dutch do.

I do. I also know how to pronounce "Vincent Van Gogh" and "broogies".
................................
Hi T,

>When jane Hudson meets fellow Americans, the McIlhennys, onboard a Vaporetto ....<

Down here, we have a few folks who have visited the Dee Orsaaay museum in Paris, Fray ants.
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L asks,

>Would you refer to a French man as "Jack" instead of "Jacques",..<

Some years ago a French pianist yclept Cassadesus reached some popularity in the US. About a year after I learned that it was pronounced Casa dei sue, he became a US citizen and changed it to
Cassa dee sus.

I never forgave him for that.

The OP got more info. than he/she bargained for.

Is the objective here to be understood by our peers or to show our infinite knowledge about foreign names and how they are pronounced?

I must admit that some of my French friends have tried in the past to tell me about American cities of which I had never heard. First time, second time, third time... They would finally say it with the French pronunciation and I understood immediately what city they were talking about. At least with the phonetic pronunciation in the language of your choice, you can immediately spell what someone is saying to you and figure out what it is.

If somebody says Reems instead of Rams, I know it is Reims. If they say Marseels instead of Marsayl, I can also figure it out.

And then there is the Cannes/Caen dilemma. No solution for that one unless they spell it out or tell you what region it is in.