British Pubs Dying Out? 65 Close Up a Month
Oct 1st, 2008, 08:19 AM
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British Pubs Dying Out? 65 Close Up a Month
NPR carried a nice story last night on the tradtional British pub and the hard times many of these icons of British life now face.
they quote the Real Ale League, which is keen to retain pubs, as saying some 65 pubs a month shut their doors forever - as younger folk especially flock more to wine bars, 'bars' or clubs. eschewing having pints at their 'local'
A pub owner in Portsmouth said the smoking ban was responsible for going from her pub being crowded most nights to now having just a few folks at any given time. She said that will cheap drinks in supermarkets folks are staying home so they can smoke and drink at the same time. Three other pubs in her area had already gone under. She is thinking ways 'to boost custom' but can't think of any angles. (What about Bingo?)
And 'local' pubs are suffering greatly as patrons no longer flock lemming like to their 'local' as they used to.
To me a joy in Britain is going into a pub and watching the action - the darts - the all ages crowd where even old ladies can come and not be tainted like in the States when they go to 'bars' - local pubs seem to serve a huge socializing role in British life - over exaggerated i believe in the Rovers in Coronation Street.
And i love the often ancient interiors of the pubs, esp the Victorian style ones and also love the pub names with weird names on signs hanging outside
Oh well i'm sure pubs will survive for a while but it seems, for the tourist at least, a sad trend.
(CW reported recently that there will soon be a Rovers Return on practically every street corner in some marketing ploy that seems to smack of big chain takeover of locals or whatever)
they quote the Real Ale League, which is keen to retain pubs, as saying some 65 pubs a month shut their doors forever - as younger folk especially flock more to wine bars, 'bars' or clubs. eschewing having pints at their 'local'
A pub owner in Portsmouth said the smoking ban was responsible for going from her pub being crowded most nights to now having just a few folks at any given time. She said that will cheap drinks in supermarkets folks are staying home so they can smoke and drink at the same time. Three other pubs in her area had already gone under. She is thinking ways 'to boost custom' but can't think of any angles. (What about Bingo?)
And 'local' pubs are suffering greatly as patrons no longer flock lemming like to their 'local' as they used to.
To me a joy in Britain is going into a pub and watching the action - the darts - the all ages crowd where even old ladies can come and not be tainted like in the States when they go to 'bars' - local pubs seem to serve a huge socializing role in British life - over exaggerated i believe in the Rovers in Coronation Street.
And i love the often ancient interiors of the pubs, esp the Victorian style ones and also love the pub names with weird names on signs hanging outside
Oh well i'm sure pubs will survive for a while but it seems, for the tourist at least, a sad trend.
(CW reported recently that there will soon be a Rovers Return on practically every street corner in some marketing ploy that seems to smack of big chain takeover of locals or whatever)
Oct 1st, 2008, 10:52 AM
#2
I'm not sure how much I disagree with here. Certainly many of the people I drink with have started frequenting the local less often, and this is mostly because of the smoking ban.
They no longer feel comfortable at the bar, having to nip out every 15 minutes or so. That said, several friends now stay longer because they are not put off by the smoke. My "footballing local" , particularly before and after winter games resembled the peasouper fogs of old Sherlock Holmes movies.
They no longer feel comfortable at the bar, having to nip out every 15 minutes or so. That said, several friends now stay longer because they are not put off by the smoke. My "footballing local" , particularly before and after winter games resembled the peasouper fogs of old Sherlock Holmes movies.
Oct 1st, 2008, 11:13 AM
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This is info from about 10 years ago when we were in London. Many folks said that the big beer companies were taking over the pubs and that the food and decor had become like chains-no character or flavor.
I think I drank wine at the pubs. Am I misremembering?
I think I drank wine at the pubs. Am I misremembering?
Oct 1st, 2008, 11:23 AM
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Between 20 and 30 years ago when I was a teenager drinking in pubs in the south Cotswold region - ok, illegally for a year or so until it became legal! - there seemed to be a pub on every corner - literally. At least one in every village, and some of our villages were small then. There used to be the public bar where darts were played, the smoke room with sawdust on the floor to absorb the spit etc - and the lounge bar where the ladies were expected to sit! With a single bar electric fire and shiny red plastic seats! And let us not forget the Off-Sales counter where kids could return empty bottles and get a penny for them, and you could buy drink and take it away to drink elsewhere...
There were so many pubs in this area that instead of counting sheep at night when trying to sleep we would count pubs within a 5 mile radius, and there were hundreds of them to choose from in these Five Valleys.
When I returned to this area 10 years ago after a good few years away, I noticed many favourite drinking places, or maybe only places which held memories for me, were no longer there. Occasionally the ubiquitous Whitbread Plaque would still be on the wall outside a residential dwelling. And today on an 8 mile drive to work I pass 2 pubs that have closed in the past year, both surrounded by a fair few houses and both used to have people drinking outside when I drove past in the evenings. I also drive past many more buildings that used to be pubs and now bear names like 'The Old Ship Inn' and the 'New Inn Cottage' and 'Phoenix Inn House'.
The smoking ban has had a lot to do with it, especially in the colder months of the year. The price of drink is now so cheap in the supermarkets that many people prefer to drink at home. I mean, I can buy a 'reasonable' bottle of white wine in Tesco for a fiver. So why should I pay 3.95 for just a glass of the same sort of stuff in the pub? Same with beer, it's cheaper in the supermarket.
And so many people now have satellite TV that they can watch the big sports fixtures at home and smoke in comfort and drink for far less than in the pub. Get a few friends round and you've got the camaraderie as well.
The pubs that have made a go of things are those who do really good food, and are more restaurants these days, though that maybe isn't what a true traditional British pub is about.
There were so many pubs in this area that instead of counting sheep at night when trying to sleep we would count pubs within a 5 mile radius, and there were hundreds of them to choose from in these Five Valleys.
When I returned to this area 10 years ago after a good few years away, I noticed many favourite drinking places, or maybe only places which held memories for me, were no longer there. Occasionally the ubiquitous Whitbread Plaque would still be on the wall outside a residential dwelling. And today on an 8 mile drive to work I pass 2 pubs that have closed in the past year, both surrounded by a fair few houses and both used to have people drinking outside when I drove past in the evenings. I also drive past many more buildings that used to be pubs and now bear names like 'The Old Ship Inn' and the 'New Inn Cottage' and 'Phoenix Inn House'.
The smoking ban has had a lot to do with it, especially in the colder months of the year. The price of drink is now so cheap in the supermarkets that many people prefer to drink at home. I mean, I can buy a 'reasonable' bottle of white wine in Tesco for a fiver. So why should I pay 3.95 for just a glass of the same sort of stuff in the pub? Same with beer, it's cheaper in the supermarket.
And so many people now have satellite TV that they can watch the big sports fixtures at home and smoke in comfort and drink for far less than in the pub. Get a few friends round and you've got the camaraderie as well.
The pubs that have made a go of things are those who do really good food, and are more restaurants these days, though that maybe isn't what a true traditional British pub is about.
Oct 1st, 2008, 11:26 AM
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It's been backwards and forwards over the decades, but the old-fashioned locals have taken a knock from bars appealing to younger drinkers - decor, styles of drink and drinking, music, all make a difference. It doesn't mean old-style locals will disappear, or that the branded chain bars will triumph permanently. Everyone learns there are no captive audiences.
Oct 1st, 2008, 11:50 AM
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There's no doubt the smoking ban is bad for most pubs' profitability. As is the fact that, with a slightly ageing population, most people have houses they can entertain a reasonable number of people in comfortably - and at supermarket, or Calais, prices, a great deal more cheaply than in a pub.
What I don't understand is the sentence "younger folk especially flock more to wine bars, 'bars' or clubs". There's no law of nature decreeing what a pub's like, however determined soap scriptwriters are to invent a pub that just never existed.
150 years ago, my Cotswold town had six times as many boozers as today, with half the population. None really were suitable for women (except the ale-wives who ran some of them), none had a choice of beers, none sold wine and none had a darts board. They were even further removed from the soap fantasy of a "traditional" pub than those dumps you get these days where you can't hear yourself speak because of the moronmusic and all the toddlers are drinking fizzy near-beer by the neck.
Truth is: English taverns are always changing (Scotch ones make up an inner circle of Hell. All you need to know about them is that for most of the 60s and 70s, the chief pub designer at Scottish & Newcastle Breweries was a teetotaller). There'll be a lot fewer of them in 30 years' time, but even at the present closure rate there'll still be 31,000 by 2038.
None of them, by then, will be anything like the soaps' fantasy. Well, just three: the Bull, the Queen Vic and the Rovers' will still occupy the same mid-50s parallel universe they're in today.
What I don't understand is the sentence "younger folk especially flock more to wine bars, 'bars' or clubs". There's no law of nature decreeing what a pub's like, however determined soap scriptwriters are to invent a pub that just never existed.
150 years ago, my Cotswold town had six times as many boozers as today, with half the population. None really were suitable for women (except the ale-wives who ran some of them), none had a choice of beers, none sold wine and none had a darts board. They were even further removed from the soap fantasy of a "traditional" pub than those dumps you get these days where you can't hear yourself speak because of the moronmusic and all the toddlers are drinking fizzy near-beer by the neck.
Truth is: English taverns are always changing (Scotch ones make up an inner circle of Hell. All you need to know about them is that for most of the 60s and 70s, the chief pub designer at Scottish & Newcastle Breweries was a teetotaller). There'll be a lot fewer of them in 30 years' time, but even at the present closure rate there'll still be 31,000 by 2038.
None of them, by then, will be anything like the soaps' fantasy. Well, just three: the Bull, the Queen Vic and the Rovers' will still occupy the same mid-50s parallel universe they're in today.
Oct 1st, 2008, 02:02 PM
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Several pubs have closed down recently in my hometown but they were all dumps and no one is really sorry to see the back of them.
Its not the smoking ban thats to blame, the traditional British pub has changed so pubs have to diversify into providing good food or live entertainment to attract more customers at the expense of other establishments. Beer sales have also dramatically reduced in favour of trendier drinks.
In a credit crunch, like any other Business only the strong survive.
Its not the smoking ban thats to blame, the traditional British pub has changed so pubs have to diversify into providing good food or live entertainment to attract more customers at the expense of other establishments. Beer sales have also dramatically reduced in favour of trendier drinks.
In a credit crunch, like any other Business only the strong survive.
Oct 2nd, 2008, 07:22 AM
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While i understand the inevitable perhaps reasons for the decline of the traditional British pub - the local pub i think it is sad that now folks more rather stay at home and watch the plethora of channels on their cable TV rather than socializing with their neighbors at their local pub.
I wish i had a local pub or bar that i could walk to - the nearest bar to may abode is a good 4 miles away and then there are no neighbors, etc. at those pubs, all clustered in a pub ghetto in downtown.
Pubs in neighborhoods are always met with NIMB Not in My Backyard and never get permits.
To walk to a pub and then have the same folks there from your neighborhood would be priceless to me.
I wish i had a local pub or bar that i could walk to - the nearest bar to may abode is a good 4 miles away and then there are no neighbors, etc. at those pubs, all clustered in a pub ghetto in downtown.
Pubs in neighborhoods are always met with NIMB Not in My Backyard and never get permits.
To walk to a pub and then have the same folks there from your neighborhood would be priceless to me.
Oct 2nd, 2008, 08:59 AM
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Pubs are so interwoven into English life that they will be with us as long as we're here. However because they are interwoven they will change as British habits change.
People in general are nowadays drinking less - health reasons, so a pub has to extend it's range of soft drinks. Our eating habits have changed so pie and chips isn't enough. There's go to be risotto and something involving sun dried tomatoes too.
Also most pubs are worth more as houses than as pubs.
People in general are nowadays drinking less - health reasons, so a pub has to extend it's range of soft drinks. Our eating habits have changed so pie and chips isn't enough. There's go to be risotto and something involving sun dried tomatoes too.
Also most pubs are worth more as houses than as pubs.
Oct 2nd, 2008, 12:10 PM
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Pal I agree it would be great to have a neighborhood pub within a nice walk. Sadly those are quite rare unless one lives in the inner city. In the 'burbs they tend to be located in the strip malls and open and close quicker than one can keep track of.
Oct 2nd, 2008, 12:48 PM
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"Are they still drizzling stuff over everything?
When I was last back, everything was caramilised and drizzled with something mediterranean."
Not in my local. The most exotic we get is drizzling some worcester sauce over the mini cheddars.
When I was last back, everything was caramilised and drizzled with something mediterranean."
Not in my local. The most exotic we get is drizzling some worcester sauce over the mini cheddars.
Oct 3rd, 2008, 07:15 AM
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Recently i wrote that Sarah Lyall in her new book on the British said that there were 19 pubs or booze outlets in the Houses of Parliaments
I guess these would be called locals
I wonder if Parlimentarian pubs are also closing at an alarming rate? Esp now that that Liberal Democrat former leader is gone, i believe.
I guess these would be called locals
I wonder if Parlimentarian pubs are also closing at an alarming rate? Esp now that that Liberal Democrat former leader is gone, i believe.
Oct 3rd, 2008, 08:25 AM
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Kennedy is stll an MP, and under less pressure to stay sober than he was when leader. No idea whether he's on the waggon this week - but he's probably doing more thes days to keep Annie's Bar in biz than he could a few years back.
Parliament's a VERY sober place these days. But our dear legislators get very upset indeed if anyone tries matching resources to demand, so the fact thay none of them drink these days won't make any of the bars turn into creches any time soon.
Parliament's a VERY sober place these days. But our dear legislators get very upset indeed if anyone tries matching resources to demand, so the fact thay none of them drink these days won't make any of the bars turn into creches any time soon.
Oct 3rd, 2008, 08:59 AM
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I'm a member of the House of Lords Sports and Social Club bar - thanks to a girlfriend who works in Parliament.
I wear the club tie sometimes. It's certainly an icebreaker.
Believe me, there's still plenty of pissed MPs and Lords (especially in Annies(which I'm not allowed in).
I wear the club tie sometimes. It's certainly an icebreaker.
Believe me, there's still plenty of pissed MPs and Lords (especially in Annies(which I'm not allowed in).
Oct 3rd, 2008, 09:30 AM
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The decline of the pub is certainly happening here in the UK.
Country pubs cannot make any profit mainly due to drink driving laws, the culture is such these days that if you want a pint you will leave the car home, so people don't take the risk. There are of course exceptions but hopefully they will soon get caught
The price of booze is prohibitive, why pay £3.60 or so for a glass of wine when the same thing is £3.60 a bottle in tesco's. My favourite Guinness is £3.00 odd a pint So if I take the present Mrs Muck out for a drink (as I have been known to do on at least 3 occasions)its nearly £7 a round now. I will drink 3 or 4 so the night gets very expensive.
Smoking has in my opinion made only a small difference , most pubs have provided a cosy heated area out the garden for smokers and they are quite busy (and smelly) places. I actually go to the pub happily because I know I wont stink of filthy smoke when I leave.
I think the world is evolving, we probably had too many pubs which were cheap and easily accessible by car. That has all changed.
So pubs will sell food and drink and the strongest will of course survive.
The one direct result from all of this has been the removal of many skittle alleys to get space for a few extra tables. Sad but true.
Anyway Im off down the pub now alone...£3 a pint thats only £12 a night out...great value !!
Muck
Country pubs cannot make any profit mainly due to drink driving laws, the culture is such these days that if you want a pint you will leave the car home, so people don't take the risk. There are of course exceptions but hopefully they will soon get caught
The price of booze is prohibitive, why pay £3.60 or so for a glass of wine when the same thing is £3.60 a bottle in tesco's. My favourite Guinness is £3.00 odd a pint So if I take the present Mrs Muck out for a drink (as I have been known to do on at least 3 occasions)its nearly £7 a round now. I will drink 3 or 4 so the night gets very expensive.
Smoking has in my opinion made only a small difference , most pubs have provided a cosy heated area out the garden for smokers and they are quite busy (and smelly) places. I actually go to the pub happily because I know I wont stink of filthy smoke when I leave.
I think the world is evolving, we probably had too many pubs which were cheap and easily accessible by car. That has all changed.
So pubs will sell food and drink and the strongest will of course survive.
The one direct result from all of this has been the removal of many skittle alleys to get space for a few extra tables. Sad but true.
Anyway Im off down the pub now alone...£3 a pint thats only £12 a night out...great value !!
Muck
