British English: Why Left-Tennant?
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:00 AM
#21
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,923
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was sure that there was one case of "lootenant" on our side of the water (one of the armed forces but not the other). But according to the OED I'm wrong:
" The origin of the beta type of forms [="lef"] (which survives in the usual British pronunciation, though the spelling represents the alpha type ["lew"]) is difficult to explain. The hypothesis of a mere misinterpretation of the graphic form (u read as v), at first sight plausible, does not accord with the facts. In view of the rare OF. form luef for lieu (with which cf. esp. the 15th c. Sc. forms luf-, lufftenand above) it seems likely that the labial glide at the end of OF. lieu as the first element of a compound was sometimes apprehended by Englishmen as a v or f. Possibly some of the forms may be due to association with LEAVE n.1 or LIEF a.
In 1793 Walker gives the actual pronunciations as (lv-, lvtnnt), but expresses the hope that ‘the regular sound, lewtenant’ will in time become current. In England this pronunciation (ljutnnt) is almost unknown. A newspaper quot. of 1893 in Funk's Standard Dictionary says that (lftnnt) is in the U.S. ‘almost confined to the retired list of the navy’.] "
" The origin of the beta type of forms [="lef"] (which survives in the usual British pronunciation, though the spelling represents the alpha type ["lew"]) is difficult to explain. The hypothesis of a mere misinterpretation of the graphic form (u read as v), at first sight plausible, does not accord with the facts. In view of the rare OF. form luef for lieu (with which cf. esp. the 15th c. Sc. forms luf-, lufftenand above) it seems likely that the labial glide at the end of OF. lieu as the first element of a compound was sometimes apprehended by Englishmen as a v or f. Possibly some of the forms may be due to association with LEAVE n.1 or LIEF a.
In 1793 Walker gives the actual pronunciations as (lv-, lvtnnt), but expresses the hope that ‘the regular sound, lewtenant’ will in time become current. In England this pronunciation (ljutnnt) is almost unknown. A newspaper quot. of 1893 in Funk's Standard Dictionary says that (lftnnt) is in the U.S. ‘almost confined to the retired list of the navy’.] "
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:07 AM
#22
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...actually when I once asked the question I was told the letter "u" is simply a corruption of the original letter "v" and by accident what should be lievtenant became written as lieutenant but it retained its original prononciation.
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:16 AM
#24
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 19,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<< The USA didn't stick it's nose outside its borders until 1941 >>>
It's a actually one of the causes of 1776 and all that - the colonials wanted to "Go West Young Man" beyond the boundaries of the 12 colonies but the British had done deals with the real locals to stay behind those borders
It's a actually one of the causes of 1776 and all that - the colonials wanted to "Go West Young Man" beyond the boundaries of the 12 colonies but the British had done deals with the real locals to stay behind those borders
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:22 AM
#25
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"But Lieu in French means place, not left"
You are quite right
Lieutenant comes from "lieu" (place) - which was never pronounced left in old French and "tenant" or "tenant lieu de" i.e. replacing the chief when necessary.
Nothing to do with right and left.
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:44 AM
#26
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maintaining my offended tone.
It's very easy to be the world's largest economy and stamp about the globe like an overgrown four year old if you have almost an entire continent previously inhabited by stone age tribes (no offence to Native Americans)handed to you on a plate.
In any case, you speak English, you have an English system of law and law enforcement, an English military system, your constitution and government is inspired by the English, your (allegedly)free market economy is based on the English system and your founding fathers were English in the main, and the majority of your population adheres to English religious denominations and the English remain your largest foreign investor.
Cheers mate!
It's very easy to be the world's largest economy and stamp about the globe like an overgrown four year old if you have almost an entire continent previously inhabited by stone age tribes (no offence to Native Americans)handed to you on a plate.
In any case, you speak English, you have an English system of law and law enforcement, an English military system, your constitution and government is inspired by the English, your (allegedly)free market economy is based on the English system and your founding fathers were English in the main, and the majority of your population adheres to English religious denominations and the English remain your largest foreign investor.
Cheers mate!
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:57 AM
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
waring - well said
i think England should become the 52nd state, after Canada!
As for Scotland and N Eire - well they can fend for themselves since they don't have that great English tradition like we do (even though anglo-saxons are a minority in the colonies these days)
Welcome aboard and you will finally have a written Constitution, thank God and no more Queenie, thank God
i think England should become the 52nd state, after Canada!
As for Scotland and N Eire - well they can fend for themselves since they don't have that great English tradition like we do (even though anglo-saxons are a minority in the colonies these days)
Welcome aboard and you will finally have a written Constitution, thank God and no more Queenie, thank God
Sep 18th, 2007, 09:07 AM
#30
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I concede on aluminum, the Septics have it right, I just can't bring myself to pronounce it like that, like saying skedule for schedule, where again, the Septic pronounciation is more logical.
Bob
The expression has fallen out of use, but the UK used to be referred to as US Airstrip One.
Why isn't the US part of the Commonwealth? You qualify you know.
Better idea, the US becomes part of Canada and you get to dump your laughing stock presidential system.
Bob
The expression has fallen out of use, but the UK used to be referred to as US Airstrip One.
Why isn't the US part of the Commonwealth? You qualify you know.
Better idea, the US becomes part of Canada and you get to dump your laughing stock presidential system.
Sep 18th, 2007, 09:13 AM
#31
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
easy - US is not part of Commonwealth because the Consitution forbades giving into any higher authority than our President - the Chief
To join Commonwealth we would have to swear fidelity to Queenie i believe and this is not possible.
We may swear at Queenie but not swear any oath to her.
The U.S. President never bows to Queenie or any other monarch you know - never.
To join Commonwealth we would have to swear fidelity to Queenie i believe and this is not possible.
We may swear at Queenie but not swear any oath to her.
The U.S. President never bows to Queenie or any other monarch you know - never.
Sep 18th, 2007, 09:20 AM
#32
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Red herring Bob,
In joining the Commonwealth you swear allegiance to Queen Betty no more than you would to the Secretary General of the UN.
There are separate monarchies within the organisation.
Come on! You know you want to.....
In joining the Commonwealth you swear allegiance to Queen Betty no more than you would to the Secretary General of the UN.
There are separate monarchies within the organisation.
Come on! You know you want to.....
Sep 18th, 2007, 09:32 AM
#33
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Why pronounce Aluminum - Al-loo-men-e-um. Why every rite thinkin person in the world knows there ain't no extra i in it."
Actually, daveesl, this IS an extra "i" in the way the British spell the word! It took me a year of living in the UK to answer THAT question, but, "over there" it is spelled "aluminium" - I guess that could be another thread!
Actually, daveesl, this IS an extra "i" in the way the British spell the word! It took me a year of living in the UK to answer THAT question, but, "over there" it is spelled "aluminium" - I guess that could be another thread!
Sep 18th, 2007, 09:33 AM
#34
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 19,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<< i think England should become the 52nd state, after Canada! >>>
60 million people, 90% of whom are politically left of Hilary Clinton, a minimum of 8 Senate seats, 90 Congressional seats...
Republicans wouldn't be in power for at least a generation
60 million people, 90% of whom are politically left of Hilary Clinton, a minimum of 8 Senate seats, 90 Congressional seats...
Republicans wouldn't be in power for at least a generation
Sep 18th, 2007, 09:38 AM
#37
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually we can go off on this in many different directions...
Why the extra u in words such as honor, color, labor?? Me thinks the US has it right on that one, don't you?
Also the singular and plural bit...you know in sports....we would say New York is winning 3-1....I have heard many Canadians and so probably many Brits saying New York are winning 3-1....
Then there is the last letter in the alphabet which the whole English speaking world calls zed...except we Yanks who call it zee.
But you have to give us some credit...we have kept the outdated English system of measurements with such archaic units as inches, feet, pounds, ounces alive....all you guys have maintained is miles and your friendly eu is not very happy about that (didn't I read somewhere that some merchant was fined for selling something using English units rather than metric units?)...and then again we still use Farenheit...and we still have our major currency unit as a nice crispy banknote unlike our English cousins who have no paper money less than 5 quid (BTW I'm not necessarily a proponent of that).....
But really these things can be discussed in good fun and not turn so serious as some of the posts did...I kid my Canadian friends all the time about some of these things (such as putting eh at the end of each sentence and pronouncing words such as out and about closer to (but not the same as) oot and aboot (I can recognize a Canadian 100 meters oops 100 yards away just from those 2 words, eh)...
So let's lighten up on this and have some fun with it rather than allow the censors to cut the thread which I am afraid they are liable to do if we keep it up.
Why the extra u in words such as honor, color, labor?? Me thinks the US has it right on that one, don't you?
Also the singular and plural bit...you know in sports....we would say New York is winning 3-1....I have heard many Canadians and so probably many Brits saying New York are winning 3-1....
Then there is the last letter in the alphabet which the whole English speaking world calls zed...except we Yanks who call it zee.
But you have to give us some credit...we have kept the outdated English system of measurements with such archaic units as inches, feet, pounds, ounces alive....all you guys have maintained is miles and your friendly eu is not very happy about that (didn't I read somewhere that some merchant was fined for selling something using English units rather than metric units?)...and then again we still use Farenheit...and we still have our major currency unit as a nice crispy banknote unlike our English cousins who have no paper money less than 5 quid (BTW I'm not necessarily a proponent of that).....
But really these things can be discussed in good fun and not turn so serious as some of the posts did...I kid my Canadian friends all the time about some of these things (such as putting eh at the end of each sentence and pronouncing words such as out and about closer to (but not the same as) oot and aboot (I can recognize a Canadian 100 meters oops 100 yards away just from those 2 words, eh)...
So let's lighten up on this and have some fun with it rather than allow the censors to cut the thread which I am afraid they are liable to do if we keep it up.
Sep 18th, 2007, 10:07 AM
#39
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Someone once said that Britain and the United States are two countried divided by a common language."
Someone else said that Britain and the US are two countries divided by the Atlantic Ocean.
I can't be bothered finding a reference but aluminum was aluminum and the English added the additional "I" later to conform with calcium, radium etc.
The dropping of the "U" in honour, colour etc was intentional on the part of American Lexicographers and was part of a half baked attempt at making spelling more logical. (cough, through, bough, I ask you!)
We have lite and nite through shear illiteracy.
Someone else said that Britain and the US are two countries divided by the Atlantic Ocean.
I can't be bothered finding a reference but aluminum was aluminum and the English added the additional "I" later to conform with calcium, radium etc.
The dropping of the "U" in honour, colour etc was intentional on the part of American Lexicographers and was part of a half baked attempt at making spelling more logical. (cough, through, bough, I ask you!)
We have lite and nite through shear illiteracy.
