merriem

Dawn, maybe I am too strong in my opinions, but.....when I am seated in a restaurant next to misbehaving children, I ask to be reseated, saying "if you don't mind, I've already raised four of my own". Actually they had lots of great experiences.....maybe not to Europe when they were 18 months old, but have been to Europe, Ecuador, Mexico, Australia just to name a few. We've taken them on a couple of cruises. Not only because they were older, but we could finally afford the BIG trip. Just two weeks ago we were sitting in a 5 star restaurant in Budapest,(just the two of us) looking out at the chain bridge.....and a child in a high chair was doing "typical" child things. They do not belong there, as they could care less about fine Hungarian wines, and local cuisine. However, there are parents that just think everyone wants to be exposed to their children....and that is just not true. I am in complete agreement about your comment about looking at the way kids behave today. It is different. The parents seem to try and "discuss" everything with them, and not correct the situation. I sat for over 8 hours on a flight to Amsterdam next to a lady with a lovely 1 year old.....however, babies will be babies....and the flight was very unpleasant. If I made anyone mad, then that was not my intention, but please look at the other side of the coin......we are not old....we have raised our children...and just don't care to share "your experience with your child".....

REALITY-BITES

WELL SAID, DAWN! <BR> <BR>Yes, I posted from experience; a ruined visit to a world-class museum by a toddler & parents. Not all, but oftentimes people with kids do act like the world owes them because they have reproduced. I see kids in a restaurant or a museum and I run the other way. This all based on EXPERIENCE.

Dawn

Thank you Sissy and Merriem, and I agree with you both. Cindy, I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic but you make some good points. No one said that you couldn't go anywhere, and not have any fun....but, haven't you ever been at a craft show and see mothers with babies and toddlers crying because its hot, boring, maybe not an appropriate place for a kid to spend his day? When a baby acts well, like a baby, in McDonald's am I annoyed, No. When a baby acts up in a fine dining establishment, am I annoyed, yes. There is a big difference. Do the parents take efforts to remove the baby, so that 1) he can calm down, and 2) others that are paying good money to enjoy their meal, may do so? A baby or toddler doesn't know when they are acting up. A child does. Sissy makes a point, do the parents pay attention to the child so that the child in not infringing on others space? Or do they just turn a blind eye, carry on their conversation, and then laugh and admire every move their child makes? You can't tell me this doesn't happen, all of my friends treat their kids this way. I see it first hand. No one said you can't take your baby to Europe or timbuktu for that matter, but is this trip in the best interest of the child? Are you going to drag them to museum after museam? Most adults come back from Europe exhausted, why would you want the added stress? Taking children is a whole different matter. Our society and unfortunately my generation for some reason thinks it now o.k. to take your young child, baby, toddler out at all hours of the day and night. What happened? Shouldn't a baby be in bed at 8:00 at night? And when he's not and he's out at the mall, at a a movie, or having dinner at 9:00 at night, and he starts to cry and get cranky, whose fault is it? Is this good parenting? My response to Kris would be, have you been to Italy or any other country already? Have you done any traveling with your baby already? And are you willing to give up many aspects of the trip for your baby?

Cindy

I can certainly agree that most kids in public are quite badly behaved. If I am out with my brood and they are behaving well, people rush over and compliment us, which I guess means that good behavior is sufficiently rare that people feel compelled to comment on it. <BR> <BR>Anyway, as I said, it is hard to find parents of young kids who will tell you to reconsider taking young kids to Europe, so allow me to do it. Going to Europe is one of the many, many things one probably should sacrifice when one has young kids. If you really do your job there, you are taking on the challenge of keeping your kids from ever being a nuisance for more than a few seconds. You will spend the whole time eating at McDonalds, walking them around on the sidewalk outside of good restaurants, playing in the park, and watching them nap in the hotel room and observing them closely to predict and manage the next tantrum. What's the point?

Cindy

Dawn, my comments were sincere, and I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. My husband and I have resigned ourselves to several more years of "no fun" as we define it, i.e. movies, plays, travel, fine dining.

Jeff

Fascinating thread. I guess I am inviting your scorn: I am taking a 6 month old to the Netherlands in May. I, too, have been annoyed by babies on planes and in restaurants. Now I guess I may be the annoyer. Obviously, I hope that is not the case. My kid is been pretty well behaved. It is so interesting, though, how I view other kids now that I have one. I'm much more compassionate and thrilled by them. No longer are they the scourge. One thing I have, perhaps reluctantly, realized is that the planes I have been on have all been a form of PUBLIC transportation. Thus, whether I like it or not, I may have to sit near a crying baby or a gouchy, smelly and/or talkative adult. At least with a crying baby, you can tactfully put in your earphones/earplugs. And, yes, my baby won't remember the trip, but we will and we want him along. It may be difficult -- and it will have its moments -- but that will be part of the adventure. My wife and I made a decision not to put our lives entirely on hold just because we have a baby. More power to those of you who are content sitting at home for the next 18 years. We are going to do plenty of that, but we must make an effort to get out and enjoy this short life. Good luck to all of you, whether you travel with or without children.

Cindy

Good luck, Jeff. A six month old might be young enough that the little one will sit in the stroller day after day and let you enjoy yourselves. Just promise me you'll take the jet-lagged tot out of the museum/church/tour/restaurant at the first sign of trouble (or before there is trouble). <BR> <BR> <BR>

Sassy

Cindy- I would like to thank you very much for being a reponsible parent and adult. I'm sure you don't hear that often enough. I just wish others would take your lead.

Beth Y.

Well, for some reason, I feel like I have to defend myself. Although my child is far from perfect, I can't believe that we annoyed anyone in France, unless some people are simply annoyed by the mere presence of children, which seems to be the case for many of you. When taking our child to the Louvre, actually she slept through most of it, but woke up to be quietly carried around and shown the paintings, which she loved. In the Rubens room, she just really reacted to the paintings, so we let her down the look at them. The paintings were hung way above her head, there was no one at our end of the room except one older couple who kept telling us how great it was for her to be seeing this, and at the other end of the room was a tour group of about 30 older adults talking so loud that they drowned out any noise she made. If it had been quiet in the room, like it had been in some others, we would have popped in the pacifier and left immediately. Parents letting there kids be disruptive are simply being irresponsible. We were not disrupting anyone. <BR>Regarding leaving our kid with the conciege, we did so to go out to a four star restaurant that so many say we should not take a kid too. We purposefully stayed at a good hotel that offered babysitting. We got to know the conciege over the week (it was a small hotel) and she said that she would be glad to watch our child. I don't see why it is any more irresponsible to leav your kid with a 30 year old woman that speaks three languages and is in charge of the well-being of any entire hotel, but okay to leave your kid at home with a 12 year old kid from the neighborhood. I felt totally comfortable, or I would not have left my child. <BR>How can people be so judgemental when they no not what they are talking about. If parents are allowing their kids to act up without any discipline, then that is a problem, but you can not automatically assume that all kids are bad. If you think that kids should not be anywhere but McDonalds, playgrounds and home, then I worry about what our children will learn and, then, become.

please

Kris stated that NOT bringing her child is NOT an option and all she asked was advice from parents in SIMILAR situation - I'm sure she did NOT want yet ANOTHER back and forth, smart arse comment war on who's a good parent for their decisions to take or not take their kids on vacation. If you pro/con people all want to bring up such issues, email each other directly and free up this board for sound advice to the questions.

Cindy

Sorry, Please, but I don't agree. Jeff was correct when he observed that this is an interesting thread, and those who find it dull needn't participate. If Kris is still reading, I'll bet she is getting a sense that a lot of folks don't welcome toddlers in Europe, and she should know that before she risks squandering what could otherwise be a romantic trip for two with her husband. <BR> <BR>Beth, I don't think anyone is saying your kids can ONLY be at McDonalds and parks. I'm saying that they can be places other than kid-friendly places when they are (1) ready and (2) closely supervised. I think you and I both know how hard it is to supervise toddlers well in public. Also, I don't understand why one would worry about whether kids are being exposed to enough culture as two-year olds when toddlers don't know a famous painting from a Dr. Seuss book. Let's face it -- when parents take toddlers abroad, the parent is often doing it for the parent's enjoyment in watching the child react to things. The toddler is not enriched by this, so kids who don't go to Europe will turn out just fine. But by your account, it sounds like you took your child outside promptly when she became disruptive, and I think that's all most people want.

Jeff

Although the thread is fascinating, someone made the point that we really are not helping Kris by responding to her query. Point taken. Kris: I'm in much the same boat as you. Here are a few tips I have read up on (maybe on this board). Bring new toys for the plane and other situations to "surprise" your child if she becomes irritable. Old toys may not be enough of a diversion. If recommended or ok'd by a doctor, dimetap and over the counter remedies may help with breathing and/or sleeping on the plane (I don't want to get into the drugging the child argument, I'm just passing this along). For smaller children, passifiers/bottles for plane take offs and landings (helps with ear pressure). Something I didn't know is that you can probably bring a stroller right up to the plane and they'll store it during the flight (instead of checking it). I assume you have your passport, for which you print the child's name, sign yours and put in parenthesis your relationship to the child. Obviously, leave your itinerary very loose. Actually, we will be working around the child's day (for naps, feedings, etc.) So be it. Talk to your lodging people about extra beds/baby-type beds. I'm planning on taking enough diapers to get me there for a few days, then finding some there. The space used by diapers can be used for souvenirs. Assuming it applies: take disposable changing pads and (perhaps plastic grocery bags for diaper disposal). We maybe taking our fancy stroller (instead of an umbrella stroller). The fancy one, though bulky, has little shocks and is more comfortable to push and, more importantly, for him to sit in. We are also bringing a chest/back pack so he can have a different perspective. I'm probably opening myself up for criticism here. Please keep in mind that Europeans occaisionally make babies, too. (apparently to the chagrin of some visiting Americans).

HAHA

This is a BS! American kids should not be taking to Europe. Kids are kids, but US kids just do not know how to behave in public - they are not tought to do so. All this because of the new methods of raising children - which quite frankly rarely work. In addition to the whole discussion about kids being a nuisense to other tourists - think about the smoking! Everybody in Europe smokes, in the states however smokers are punished by taxes as well as limitation on where to smoke - Why? Because it is bad for others.... Well, in Europe everybody smokes everywhere and you certainly do not want you US raised child to be exposed to smoke

Dawn

Great points Cindy!

Tom

We just arrived back from an 8 day trip to Venice & Florence and from our own experience I would strongly recommend bringing your child. We took our 10 month old daughter with us and she was a great traveler. We brought along enough supplies (diapers, wipes, food) for two days and had no problem buying more once there. We also bought some new toys and books to help keep her entertained. Rather than use a stroller we carried our daughter in a backpack carrier and it worked out great. We were also flexible with our time so as to follow our daughter's schedule. I'm sure many of the previous posters would consider us selfish but we took our daughter simply because we felt that we would enjoy our trip more with her than without. Did we have concern for others as we traveled? Of course! We avoided the nicer restaurants and sought out ones which seemed more family oriented. If she started to fuss in the museums (which she rarely did) we simply moved to an area where few would be disturbed. You simply do the things that you would want others to do if you were in their shoes. For the most part everywhere we went our daughter was very warmly received. We both agreed our trip was more enjoyable because of her and that having her along created positive opportunities to meet others. Regarding what good does it do her to travel, even though she might not know the difference between famous art and Dr. Seuss (often times I don't know the difference either), we did provide her with 8 full days of time with her mother and father which is time I would not trade for the world. Also we do not feel that our own fun should stop until she reaches the age of eighteen. Good luck and happy traveling!

merriem

Going to Europe is not cheap, and every time this subject about children and Europe comes up, I really wonder how can families afford these luxuries when they have small children? Would someone please answer that question? Our children are between 24 and 30 and when they were growning up, inspite of a good job....it wasn't even a remote possibility in the budget. I still think it is absurb to talk about how a two year old "reacts" to a painting in France....come on that is silly an somewhat nonsence.

Jeff

Merriem: I wish I could say I was independently wealthy, but sadly that is not true. If it were, I'd be traveling right now, rather than traveling vicariously through these boards. Your question may make for a completely separate posting. In short, we make concessions to travel and use travel deals, such as frequent flier miles or specials. Also, we have found Europe (or at least parts) to be similar in expense to travel in the US (if flying to either coast and visiting major cities). There are exceptions, of course, like London, which we found to be very expensive. I have a hard time finding lodging near major cities for less than $100, but do well in Paris, for example, at $85 a night. Anyway, this topic warrants its own thread. <BR>

Cindy

Merrium- I'll take a crack at your question about how people can afford to take little kids to Europe. There are probably many explanations, but I'd guess many of the parents are professionals who make money. Since people marry later and have kids later and have fewer of them, perhaps they both worked before they had kids and saved money. If one of them travels for business, they can get free airline tickets via frequent flier miles. Add in the booming economy and stock market, and I suppose a lot of people are flush and would rather travel than buy a bigger house. Besides, a baby wouldn't add to the meal expense or hotel expense, so I suppose it isn't that expensive to do.

jennifer

I've taken my son to Italy twice, once at just over 2 yrs and again at 3 1/2 yrs. We always made allowances for playgrounds, gelato and just sitting and watching the world go by. It worked out just fine. If we ate out, we went to the restaurant early, supplied with books, small (quiet) toys and crayons. We had our own accomodations so we had the luxury of eating meals at home. We broke a few of our normal rules, sometimes Jack ate his gelato before his pasta and he probably drank a bit more soda than he normally does. But he lived, we lived, and we all had a great time. I have said it before, Europeans just seem to be more kid friendly than we Americans. If Jack even looked like he was going to cry nannas & pappas appeared from all sides! We didn't visit Rome but a word of warning on Florence. It is a very busy city, lots of traffic. Negotiating the streets with a stroller is a bit difficult. Check out the merry-go-round in front on the Armani and Principe stores. Have a wonderful time.

Jeff

Ok, I was trying to be helpful, but I must admit, now I am trying (faintly) to be provocative: We are discussing (perhaps arguing) about taking children to Europe. There are two sides represented here. Let me propose: What is the difference b/t eating in a nice Paris restaurant with/near a child and eating in a nice Paris restaurant with/near a well-dressed woman who just happens to have a dog on her lap? Please don't tell me it is b/c the dog is quiet. Most of us would not welcome a guest and his/her dog at our dinner table at home. I'm afraid the distinction is that the woman/dog scenario is foreign, whereas the child scenario is, well, domestic, i.e. mundane. Even if this is so, perhaps we need to relish those things that transend oceans and borders, i.e. children. Please respond; give me heck. You know I am dealing with the guilt of taking a child to Europe, so I am a little unbalanced right now.