Belgium Considers Splitting Into 2?
Oct 10th, 2007, 10:54 AM
#42
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It may look as the Flemings just want to get rid of the poorer Walloons, however that is not the main issue although off course money is part of the game.
Basically it is all about democracy. It is not the pinnacle of democracy that a Dutch-speaker needs much more votes before to get elected into the federal praliament than a French speaking candidate.
It is not the best form of democracy that 20% of the MP's can block any initiative the parliament takes. If these 20% op MP's do not like a new law, they just decide that it is no
Basically it is all about democracy. It is not the pinnacle of democracy that a Dutch-speaker needs much more votes before to get elected into the federal praliament than a French speaking candidate.
It is not the best form of democracy that 20% of the MP's can block any initiative the parliament takes. If these 20% op MP's do not like a new law, they just decide that it is no
Oct 10th, 2007, 10:58 AM
#43
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It may look as the Flemings just want to get rid of the poorer Walloons, however that is not the main issue, although off course money is part of the game.
Basically it is all about democracy. It is not the pinnacle of democracy that a Dutch-speaker needs much more votes to get elected into the federal praliament than a French speaking candidate.
It is not the best form of democracy that 20% of the MP's can block any initiative the parliament takes. If these 20% op MP's do not like a new law, they just decide that it will not be a law...
Furthermore, the Walloons wanted a federal country with separate states, they got there beloved state Walloonia. But... they refuse to recognize the territorial integrity of the other state(s).
Next to this you need to know that the federal government is nearly bankrupt, because the 'state' of Walloonia demanded large parts of the federal budget. Fine if they want more of the national funds, but then they need to take the competencies as well
Basically it is all about democracy. It is not the pinnacle of democracy that a Dutch-speaker needs much more votes to get elected into the federal praliament than a French speaking candidate.
It is not the best form of democracy that 20% of the MP's can block any initiative the parliament takes. If these 20% op MP's do not like a new law, they just decide that it will not be a law...
Furthermore, the Walloons wanted a federal country with separate states, they got there beloved state Walloonia. But... they refuse to recognize the territorial integrity of the other state(s).
Next to this you need to know that the federal government is nearly bankrupt, because the 'state' of Walloonia demanded large parts of the federal budget. Fine if they want more of the national funds, but then they need to take the competencies as well
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:04 AM
#44
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It may look as the Flemings just want to get rid of the poorer Walloons, however that is not the main issue, although off course money is part of the game.
Basically it is all about democracy. It is not the pinnacle of democracy that a Dutch-speaker needs much more votes to get elected into the federal praliament than a French speaking candidate.
It is not the best form of democracy that 20% of the MP's can block any initiative the parliament takes. If this 20% of MP's do not like a new law, they just decide that it will not be a law...
Furthermore, the Walloons wanted a federal country with separate states, they got there beloved state Walloonia. But... they refuse to recognize the territorial integrity of the other state(s).
And then there is the money... With a federal government that has hardly no money because one state just demands that all there whims are paid for, it is normal that the other state wants two things: more autonomy, as if the Flemings want a good justice department they will have to do it themselfs (the federal gov. had no money for new locks on prison doors, the 'inmates' just ran out!) or the federal gov. has to cut on expenses, but that the Walloons don't want...
Basically it is all about democracy. It is not the pinnacle of democracy that a Dutch-speaker needs much more votes to get elected into the federal praliament than a French speaking candidate.
It is not the best form of democracy that 20% of the MP's can block any initiative the parliament takes. If this 20% of MP's do not like a new law, they just decide that it will not be a law...
Furthermore, the Walloons wanted a federal country with separate states, they got there beloved state Walloonia. But... they refuse to recognize the territorial integrity of the other state(s).
And then there is the money... With a federal government that has hardly no money because one state just demands that all there whims are paid for, it is normal that the other state wants two things: more autonomy, as if the Flemings want a good justice department they will have to do it themselfs (the federal gov. had no money for new locks on prison doors, the 'inmates' just ran out!) or the federal gov. has to cut on expenses, but that the Walloons don't want...
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:04 AM
#45
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bury - then you obviously do not like the status quo - are you in favor of complete separation - if so what happens to Brussels - a third sovreign state?
and i'm not partial just interested in various opinions from Belgians, Flems or Walloons.
and i'm not partial just interested in various opinions from Belgians, Flems or Walloons.
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:14 AM
#48
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Sorry, I pressed too quickly on the Post button.
@PalenQ: the status-quo is a dead end street, as money is running out. Too be precise it IS gone. They just discovered that the minister of Defence spended some millions of euros that he was not allowed too.
Belgium just needs to become a real democratic (con)federal country. And all layers of government should pay for there own whims. I do not want solidarity abolished, but then the receiving-end-of-solidarity cannot decide to employ more civil servants and having another state paying for it.
Simple: all three languages should be represented in the government, but one half of a minority cannot block all democratic majority initiatives, otherwise this country will never reform anything and we will not be able to pay the social welfare of future generations.
What with Brussels? Well, they have what they asked for and they get lost of money for it.
If Belgium would split it is up to the citizins of Brussels to decide upon their own future. But the ex-citizins of Brussels that fled out of the city because of dirt, smell and non-native Belgians and foreigners cannot demand now that their new 'homeland' should be attached to Brussels, why would they have fled in the first place?
@PalenQ: the status-quo is a dead end street, as money is running out. Too be precise it IS gone. They just discovered that the minister of Defence spended some millions of euros that he was not allowed too.
Belgium just needs to become a real democratic (con)federal country. And all layers of government should pay for there own whims. I do not want solidarity abolished, but then the receiving-end-of-solidarity cannot decide to employ more civil servants and having another state paying for it.
Simple: all three languages should be represented in the government, but one half of a minority cannot block all democratic majority initiatives, otherwise this country will never reform anything and we will not be able to pay the social welfare of future generations.
What with Brussels? Well, they have what they asked for and they get lost of money for it.
If Belgium would split it is up to the citizins of Brussels to decide upon their own future. But the ex-citizins of Brussels that fled out of the city because of dirt, smell and non-native Belgians and foreigners cannot demand now that their new 'homeland' should be attached to Brussels, why would they have fled in the first place?
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:18 AM
#49
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The German speakers can off course decide upon their own future. That is democracy.
But for the moment they 'enjoy' Belgium as they have more autonomy for such a small entity than they would have within 'Bundes'-Germany. However, within Belgium as the Flemings they want more autonomy.
But for the moment they 'enjoy' Belgium as they have more autonomy for such a small entity than they would have within 'Bundes'-Germany. However, within Belgium as the Flemings they want more autonomy.
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:19 AM
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Ze Germans would of course be reintegrated into Germany 
from which they were separated after ze wor. (Eupen/Malmedy).
It's fun that all those discussions in this thread are ridiculous today. Peace in Europe!
from which they were separated after ze wor. (Eupen/Malmedy).It's fun that all those discussions in this thread are ridiculous today. Peace in Europe!
, why change anything?? As a "EU citizen" at least in western Europe, I don't feel/see any borders, do you?
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:32 AM
#53
There have been whispered plans on occasion for Germany and France to merge into one country. The subject comes up when they are frustrated by the other EU members, as they are the two countries which normally have the closest common vision of how the EU should be. Amazing when you consider their respective past history.
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:33 AM
#55
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@logos: borders in Belgium have not much influence on foreigners, but the more for its own people(s).
And not the borders in Belgium are an issue - exept one state not exepting them - but the democratic powers to act instead of the vetos to block.
And not the borders in Belgium are an issue - exept one state not exepting them - but the democratic powers to act instead of the vetos to block.
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:36 AM
#56
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No problem for 'the Belgians' to have a (con)federation of Europe, even the separatists here want that.
Keep in mind that they want the EU parliament to have more power and less vetos for individual countries. The way too the majority vote.
Keep in mind that they want the EU parliament to have more power and less vetos for individual countries. The way too the majority vote.
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:41 AM
#57
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>every go to the U.K., Switzerland?
Before you can go to Switzerland you have pass checkpoints on the German side, where they want to check if you're "smuggling" money. But for decades, it's never been a real "border", and now that you can work there without limitations... They even speak someting similar to German in some places.
The UK is an island and I always wonder why they don't join the USA? (Remember Helmut Schmidt) You can have em, if you want!
Before you can go to Switzerland you have pass checkpoints on the German side, where they want to check if you're "smuggling" money. But for decades, it's never been a real "border", and now that you can work there without limitations... They even speak someting similar to German in some places.
The UK is an island and I always wonder why they don't join the USA? (Remember Helmut Schmidt) You can have em, if you want!
Oct 10th, 2007, 11:59 AM
#58
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"How about a European Union where all country borders are truly abolished - a (con) federation?"
A very strong movement on the Continent but opposed by Britain and the Scandahooligans who are more keen on keeping the EU as a trading block.
Damned if Britain is going to underwrite the German state pension system etc.
A single EU constitution was voted down by the French and the Dutch populations and the notion of the UK joining the Euro is laughable.
There are already problems with the Euro and interest rates. What do you do with interest rates if Ireland is in an inflationary boom and Portugal is dying on its arse?
There is no big theory behind European Unification, no Karl Marx or a Benjamin Franklin, its all happy clappy let's hold hands, nothing deeper.
A very strong movement on the Continent but opposed by Britain and the Scandahooligans who are more keen on keeping the EU as a trading block.
Damned if Britain is going to underwrite the German state pension system etc.
A single EU constitution was voted down by the French and the Dutch populations and the notion of the UK joining the Euro is laughable.
There are already problems with the Euro and interest rates. What do you do with interest rates if Ireland is in an inflationary boom and Portugal is dying on its arse?
There is no big theory behind European Unification, no Karl Marx or a Benjamin Franklin, its all happy clappy let's hold hands, nothing deeper.
