bad restaurant alert: munich
Apr 15th, 2007, 03:16 AM
#22
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okay, thanks for the responses. now let me see if i can set some misconceptions straight...
first, i'm well aware that the marienplatz area is loaded with tourist traps. it also has several excellent eateries such as pfistermuhl and the alter hof. and yes, neopatrick, i have eaten in a multitude of restaurants and been a part owner of one. so i do understand the economics of drink pricing. standard price for this drink throughout germany is between 3.5 and 4.85e. but thanks for the sarcasm.
that said, i also know how to read a menu (in several languages). what we were served was listed on their menu as gemuseteller (swiss vegetable plate) not the kase fondu which i had in fact ordered. there can hardly be a confusion between the two items.
my concern was not with the error itself but, rather, how it was handled or, to my mind, mishandled by the owner. she was positively apoplectic over a plate of veggies which i would have removed and replaced with whatever the customer wanted regardless of who was "in the right". but, hey, that's me.
as to the definition of fondu, i certainly stand corrected in assuming a necessary link with cheese. i don't think i'm alone in this misconception and shall make it my life's program to educate one and all for the balance of my few remaining years. but i still maintain that gemuseteller is NOT kase fondu.
my intent for posting the original was to hopefully steer the unsuspecting away from what i am sure is an ongoing miserable dining experience given the attitude of the owner and "staff" of this establishment.
first, i'm well aware that the marienplatz area is loaded with tourist traps. it also has several excellent eateries such as pfistermuhl and the alter hof. and yes, neopatrick, i have eaten in a multitude of restaurants and been a part owner of one. so i do understand the economics of drink pricing. standard price for this drink throughout germany is between 3.5 and 4.85e. but thanks for the sarcasm.
that said, i also know how to read a menu (in several languages). what we were served was listed on their menu as gemuseteller (swiss vegetable plate) not the kase fondu which i had in fact ordered. there can hardly be a confusion between the two items.
my concern was not with the error itself but, rather, how it was handled or, to my mind, mishandled by the owner. she was positively apoplectic over a plate of veggies which i would have removed and replaced with whatever the customer wanted regardless of who was "in the right". but, hey, that's me.
as to the definition of fondu, i certainly stand corrected in assuming a necessary link with cheese. i don't think i'm alone in this misconception and shall make it my life's program to educate one and all for the balance of my few remaining years. but i still maintain that gemuseteller is NOT kase fondu.
my intent for posting the original was to hopefully steer the unsuspecting away from what i am sure is an ongoing miserable dining experience given the attitude of the owner and "staff" of this establishment.
Apr 15th, 2007, 03:50 AM
#24
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no...
we had the two overpriced coctails, a bottle of wine, a soup (which was actually quite good), the gemuseteller (which we didn't order but were charged for) and the kase fondu (which we originally ordered).
does that help to clear it up for you?
we had the two overpriced coctails, a bottle of wine, a soup (which was actually quite good), the gemuseteller (which we didn't order but were charged for) and the kase fondu (which we originally ordered).
does that help to clear it up for you?
Apr 15th, 2007, 04:04 AM
#25
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Yep, one Gemüseteller (not ordered) and one Käsefondue (odered). A Käsefondue (cheese fondu) without cheese clearly doesn't exist anywhere on the plant 
.
Expensive stuff!!!. What made you order wine there, as there isn't the slightest chance of getting any decent quality for a resonable amount of money.
. Expensive stuff!!!
. What made you order wine there, as there isn't the slightest chance of getting any decent quality for a resonable amount of money.
Apr 15th, 2007, 04:17 AM
#26
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subcon: This sounds like a miserable experience made worse by rude service. I appreciate the warning and will make sure to stay away from this place, as that seems to be your intent in warning us.
I don't think you deserve the abuse that has been hurled at you in response to your original post. You had a bad experience and you kindly warned us so that we would not have a bad experience as well. That is part of what this forum is all about.
By the way, I have had plenty of good meals in high traffic tourist areas in many cities around the world. I had some of the best pizza I have ever had in a little place in the main area on Verona, I just wish I could remember the name of the place so I could repeat the experience. I don't fault you for eating in a tourist area and I don't fault you for getting a bad meal. We have all had bad meals when travelling and most of us just get on with it. Your experience is truely rude service, which is unforgivable no matter where the restaurant is located.
I don't think you deserve the abuse that has been hurled at you in response to your original post. You had a bad experience and you kindly warned us so that we would not have a bad experience as well. That is part of what this forum is all about.
By the way, I have had plenty of good meals in high traffic tourist areas in many cities around the world. I had some of the best pizza I have ever had in a little place in the main area on Verona, I just wish I could remember the name of the place so I could repeat the experience. I don't fault you for eating in a tourist area and I don't fault you for getting a bad meal. We have all had bad meals when travelling and most of us just get on with it. Your experience is truely rude service, which is unforgivable no matter where the restaurant is located.
Apr 15th, 2007, 05:42 AM
#27
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OK, what's going on here?
In the original post you clearly said, "they tout themselves as a fondu specialist, so we order FONDU WITH VEGETABLES. now i don't know what fondu means to you, but to me, it's intrinsically linked with cheese." Your saying "i don't know what fondu means to you, but to me, it's intrinsically linked with cheese" wouldn't have made any sense and you never would have said that if you did in fact order "kase fondue" from the menu. Of course it is cheese when it says so, but you never originally indicated that you ordered kase fondue.
Now your story TOTALLY CHANGES. You say you ordered kase fondu with vegetables. HUH? If so, why on earth wouldn't you have said that in the original post and saved us all explaining to you what vegetable fondue is?
If you're going to tell a story and report it totally inaccurrately then you can be sure people will comment on it the way you told it. Correcting your story later is fine -- but please realize your new story is NOTHING like your original post. It seems you now realize that lots of people know that vegetable fondue does not have cheese, so you've changed your story to say that you specifically ordered cheese fondue, when before you made it clear that you ordered vegetable fondue and ASSUMED it was "intrinsically linked with cheese". Meanwhile it is even harder to imagine that the "swiss vegetable plate" that you claim is what they brought you would actually come with a fondue pot of broth and forks. Your whole story makes even less sense now than it did in your first go round.
And as to receiving "abuse" here, I think it should be understood by any poster that if you file a complaint and proceed to show that you were in the WRONG that people will point that out. It's a fact of life of message boards.
jdraper, if you reported that you were totally ripped off at a petrol station in France because the sign listed 1.30 euro and you filled up assuming that was per gallon, but it couldn't have been because your little car took 45 of those units -- don't you think people would point out that YOU WERE WRONG -- not them? Particularly if you blamed the station for not making it clear it was liters, not gallons that they were selling? And changing your story later to say, "oh no -- the sign clearly said gallons, that's what we were buying" probably won't get you off the hook. That is what is happening here.
Subcon, I realize that drink prices vary, and it's nice that you do too. So you think that there are no other restaurants in Germany that would charge 7.5 for a cocktail of Martini and Rossi? Telling us how much the bottle cost them is just plain silly.
Next you'll be ranting and raving about how airplanes charge you $5 for a little bottle of liquor that only costs them 90cents -- oh wait a minute, you already did that!
I always appreciate warnings of bad experiences. And I'm glad to be warned of the rudeness of this place. But to paint yourself as some sort of victim because you clearly didn't order what you thought you were ordering is NOT a problem with the restaurant. Period.
If you consider my comments sarcasm, so be it. I consider them logical and to the point; I'm sorry if they hurt or embarrass you because they strike too close to home.
In the original post you clearly said, "they tout themselves as a fondu specialist, so we order FONDU WITH VEGETABLES. now i don't know what fondu means to you, but to me, it's intrinsically linked with cheese." Your saying "i don't know what fondu means to you, but to me, it's intrinsically linked with cheese" wouldn't have made any sense and you never would have said that if you did in fact order "kase fondue" from the menu. Of course it is cheese when it says so, but you never originally indicated that you ordered kase fondue.
Now your story TOTALLY CHANGES. You say you ordered kase fondu with vegetables. HUH? If so, why on earth wouldn't you have said that in the original post and saved us all explaining to you what vegetable fondue is?
If you're going to tell a story and report it totally inaccurrately then you can be sure people will comment on it the way you told it. Correcting your story later is fine -- but please realize your new story is NOTHING like your original post. It seems you now realize that lots of people know that vegetable fondue does not have cheese, so you've changed your story to say that you specifically ordered cheese fondue, when before you made it clear that you ordered vegetable fondue and ASSUMED it was "intrinsically linked with cheese". Meanwhile it is even harder to imagine that the "swiss vegetable plate" that you claim is what they brought you would actually come with a fondue pot of broth and forks. Your whole story makes even less sense now than it did in your first go round.
And as to receiving "abuse" here, I think it should be understood by any poster that if you file a complaint and proceed to show that you were in the WRONG that people will point that out. It's a fact of life of message boards.
jdraper, if you reported that you were totally ripped off at a petrol station in France because the sign listed 1.30 euro and you filled up assuming that was per gallon, but it couldn't have been because your little car took 45 of those units -- don't you think people would point out that YOU WERE WRONG -- not them? Particularly if you blamed the station for not making it clear it was liters, not gallons that they were selling? And changing your story later to say, "oh no -- the sign clearly said gallons, that's what we were buying" probably won't get you off the hook. That is what is happening here.
Subcon, I realize that drink prices vary, and it's nice that you do too. So you think that there are no other restaurants in Germany that would charge 7.5 for a cocktail of Martini and Rossi? Telling us how much the bottle cost them is just plain silly.
Next you'll be ranting and raving about how airplanes charge you $5 for a little bottle of liquor that only costs them 90cents -- oh wait a minute, you already did that!
I always appreciate warnings of bad experiences. And I'm glad to be warned of the rudeness of this place. But to paint yourself as some sort of victim because you clearly didn't order what you thought you were ordering is NOT a problem with the restaurant. Period.
If you consider my comments sarcasm, so be it. I consider them logical and to the point; I'm sorry if they hurt or embarrass you because they strike too close to home.
Apr 15th, 2007, 06:19 AM
#28
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listen...
i ordered a cheese fondue with vegetables and got a gemuseteller which was a plate of assorted vegetables replete with a pot of boiling water and assorted sauces.
i am most emphatically not changing my story any more than i ordered the gemuseteller by accident.
in any event, i've tried to make clear that my problem is not with the error but how it was handled. this was truly one time you had to be there.
and yes, if i ordered the martini and rossi at tantris or am marstall, i would expect to pay more than at a local cafe. but this place was no tantris.
as far as hurting my feelings, get over yourself.
i ordered a cheese fondue with vegetables and got a gemuseteller which was a plate of assorted vegetables replete with a pot of boiling water and assorted sauces.
i am most emphatically not changing my story any more than i ordered the gemuseteller by accident.
in any event, i've tried to make clear that my problem is not with the error but how it was handled. this was truly one time you had to be there.
and yes, if i ordered the martini and rossi at tantris or am marstall, i would expect to pay more than at a local cafe. but this place was no tantris.
as far as hurting my feelings, get over yourself.
Apr 15th, 2007, 06:35 AM
#29
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No, problem if that's what you ordered, but if you go back and read your original post you'll see why several of us were so confused. If you had only SAID you ordered a CHEESE fondue originally, there NEVER would have been any issue. But that's NOT what you said. I'm sorry but I, for one, am not a mind reader.
Now YOU get over YOURSELF. Saying "I'm sorry I wasn't clear" or "I'm sorry I left out the cheese part in my original post" would be a nice start. But yelling at people because they read what you wrote and then responded to it, instead of what you meant to say is really not going to get you anywhere.
Now YOU get over YOURSELF. Saying "I'm sorry I wasn't clear" or "I'm sorry I left out the cheese part in my original post" would be a nice start. But yelling at people because they read what you wrote and then responded to it, instead of what you meant to say is really not going to get you anywhere.
Apr 15th, 2007, 08:32 AM
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Maybe it's just me, but when you disagree with what a poster says, why the need for such hostility? Would you react the same way in person? If so, I would imagine there's some people on this message board who have no friends in "real life".
Apr 15th, 2007, 08:47 AM
#31
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My original post was not hostile in the least, (or at least no more hostile than the poster was being to a restaurant for doing something that was his mistake, not theirs) but I did point out that if what the poster said he did was in fact what he did, then he was wrong to blame the restaurant. And yes, I'd say that to his face in real life. I have a lot of friends, most of them admire my honesty.
If even a close friend said "I ordered vegetable fondue thinking it would have to have cheese, but it didn't" I would NOT hesitate to tell them that it was their error --vegetable fondue doesn't have cheese. That's how this thread started off track -- by people telling subcon that what he said he did was simply his own mistake. That's what people do -- even with friends --explain what went wrong, not simply agree with them. If my close friend came back after being corrected and said, oh but I didn't order vegetable fondue, what I really ordered was cheese fondue with a plate of vegetables, I'm not sure what I would think -- but probably that they were right the first time.
If there is hostility in my later posts it's because this poster came back and totally changed his story and acts like those who didn't understand his now supposedly mistaken original scenario are the ones who are at fault. Yes, being blamed for not understanding what he "meant to say" instead of what he "said" sort of makes me "hostile" I guess.
I have often posted mistakes. I've gone back and corrected some, and when questioned on others, I have also said "oops, yes, I meant to say it WAS NOT instead of it WAS" or whatever. I had one of those just a few days ago. I don't think it's such a big deal to come back and say, "whoops, sorry, I meant to say what we ordered was Cheese fondue with vegetables", but this poster seems clearly set to not even admit that he left out a very important detail and we who beleived he meant what he said are the "villains". Sorry, I just don't buy that. We all make mistakes in what we post, why get so defensive if someone believes what we said? And that seems to be my big crime here -- I believed what he said the first time, and commented on it.
If even a close friend said "I ordered vegetable fondue thinking it would have to have cheese, but it didn't" I would NOT hesitate to tell them that it was their error --vegetable fondue doesn't have cheese. That's how this thread started off track -- by people telling subcon that what he said he did was simply his own mistake. That's what people do -- even with friends --explain what went wrong, not simply agree with them. If my close friend came back after being corrected and said, oh but I didn't order vegetable fondue, what I really ordered was cheese fondue with a plate of vegetables, I'm not sure what I would think -- but probably that they were right the first time.
If there is hostility in my later posts it's because this poster came back and totally changed his story and acts like those who didn't understand his now supposedly mistaken original scenario are the ones who are at fault. Yes, being blamed for not understanding what he "meant to say" instead of what he "said" sort of makes me "hostile" I guess.
I have often posted mistakes. I've gone back and corrected some, and when questioned on others, I have also said "oops, yes, I meant to say it WAS NOT instead of it WAS" or whatever. I had one of those just a few days ago. I don't think it's such a big deal to come back and say, "whoops, sorry, I meant to say what we ordered was Cheese fondue with vegetables", but this poster seems clearly set to not even admit that he left out a very important detail and we who beleived he meant what he said are the "villains". Sorry, I just don't buy that. We all make mistakes in what we post, why get so defensive if someone believes what we said? And that seems to be my big crime here -- I believed what he said the first time, and commented on it.
Apr 15th, 2007, 09:05 AM
#32
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1. A cheese fondue with a vegetable plate doesn't make any sense at all. How would one cook vegetables in pure cheese, after all?!
Probably that's why they (also?) served the broth version of fondue (which in fact is much more common than the all cheese version or the chocolate variety). I do admit that a bouillan cube makes me cringe, though.
2. EUR 7.50 for a Martini is perfectly reasonable in Germany - in fact I'd consider it to be on the cheap side.
It would help to get acquainted with local price levels before getting aggravated about "being ripped off".
3. It is quite uncommon for German restaurants to take something of the bill (<i>"Rechnung"</i> without an <i><b>"s"</b></i
that was prepared and served <i>lege artis</i>.
Is it good hospitality to charge the OP in these circumstances? Not. But after all they were willing to compromise with the bill as I take it.
4. I have no affiliation with the establishment concerned or any other interest in it. But the increasing number of completely uninformed posts that despite obvious mistakes by the posters themselves lead to complaining around here is apalling.
If any German tourist to Austria would complain about getting a fillet mignon after having ordered <i>"Lungenbraten"</i> (which literally translates to "roast of lung"
, they would be laughed at by the Austrians, too.
It usually helps to familiarise oneself with local customs and language before complaining about being "ripped off".
Probably that's why they (also?) served the broth version of fondue (which in fact is much more common than the all cheese version or the chocolate variety). I do admit that a bouillan cube makes me cringe, though.
2. EUR 7.50 for a Martini is perfectly reasonable in Germany - in fact I'd consider it to be on the cheap side.
It would help to get acquainted with local price levels before getting aggravated about "being ripped off".
3. It is quite uncommon for German restaurants to take something of the bill (<i>"Rechnung"</i> without an <i><b>"s"</b></i
that was prepared and served <i>lege artis</i>.Is it good hospitality to charge the OP in these circumstances? Not. But after all they were willing to compromise with the bill as I take it.
4. I have no affiliation with the establishment concerned or any other interest in it. But the increasing number of completely uninformed posts that despite obvious mistakes by the posters themselves lead to complaining around here is apalling.
If any German tourist to Austria would complain about getting a fillet mignon after having ordered <i>"Lungenbraten"</i> (which literally translates to "roast of lung"
, they would be laughed at by the Austrians, too.It usually helps to familiarise oneself with local customs and language before complaining about being "ripped off".
Apr 15th, 2007, 09:52 AM
#34
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very funny discussion. a person goes to a restaurant and orders something he doesn't understand, posts here it was the restaurant's mistake, and then when he is corrected, claims he ordered something different from what he first said he ordered. then people get angry because no one can read what the poster said. if the poster is unable to keep his stories straight and gets angry that anyone tried to correct him that speaks volumes of why there might have been a problem with service when he made a mistake with what he ordered.
the post started by saying that it was a really slow day but the restaurant was crowded. some people must like the place. i have been to a nice fondue restaurant in munich but i am not sure it is this one. are there others? the place we went to is pretty fancy and expensive and all red inside. it was near the townhall. they do have a broth with vegetable fondue. after cooking your vegetables in the broth you drink the broth like soup. i was in a large group and we had several kinds of fondue but none of them with cheese. most were meat and oil, two of the women shared the vegetable one. the servers explained all the different kinds to us when we asked.
the post started by saying that it was a really slow day but the restaurant was crowded. some people must like the place. i have been to a nice fondue restaurant in munich but i am not sure it is this one. are there others? the place we went to is pretty fancy and expensive and all red inside. it was near the townhall. they do have a broth with vegetable fondue. after cooking your vegetables in the broth you drink the broth like soup. i was in a large group and we had several kinds of fondue but none of them with cheese. most were meat and oil, two of the women shared the vegetable one. the servers explained all the different kinds to us when we asked.
Apr 15th, 2007, 10:12 AM
#35
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Michael,
Raclette: Prepared in small saucepans filled with your choice of potatoes, salami, vegetables, ham etc. and topped with a layer of cheese. The saucepans are then subjected to heat from above in a special device.
Vegetable Fondue: Vegetables of all sorts are bein attaced to long forks and then cooked in a pot of broth.
Cheese Fondue: Cheese melted in a pot along with a few shots of <i>Kirschwasser</i> schnaps. Then white bread of a baguette variety is being put on one of the long forks and soaked in the melted cheese.
Raclette: Prepared in small saucepans filled with your choice of potatoes, salami, vegetables, ham etc. and topped with a layer of cheese. The saucepans are then subjected to heat from above in a special device.
Vegetable Fondue: Vegetables of all sorts are bein attaced to long forks and then cooked in a pot of broth.
Cheese Fondue: Cheese melted in a pot along with a few shots of <i>Kirschwasser</i> schnaps. Then white bread of a baguette variety is being put on one of the long forks and soaked in the melted cheese.
Apr 15th, 2007, 10:21 AM
#36
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hsv,
The raclette I know has a special cheese holder over a flame so that it melts a little at a time. You take the pre -ccoked (par-boiled?) vegetables that come on a servig dish and rug them against the melting cheese. That's what I saw in the cheese restaurant in Strasbourg, and have since the cheese holder elsewhere.
The raclette I know has a special cheese holder over a flame so that it melts a little at a time. You take the pre -ccoked (par-boiled?) vegetables that come on a servig dish and rug them against the melting cheese. That's what I saw in the cheese restaurant in Strasbourg, and have since the cheese holder elsewhere.
Apr 15th, 2007, 10:26 AM
#37
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The above two posts just go to show how our opinions of what we THINK we're going to get are different from what we might actually get. I love raclette. I've had it several times like Michael describes it -- a special heater that holds a huge hunk of cheese and you lower the heater coil over to melt the cheese, then scrape it off. But in Zurich I was surprised to get a raclette just like hsv describes -- a sort of toaster oven with little handled "pans" that you put cheese in and put under the broiler.
Apr 15th, 2007, 10:32 AM
#38
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Michael,
interesting.
My description fits what I am used to in Germany - and what I once had in the German speaking part of Switzerland. Thus I assumed it was universal.
Making a fuss about it, would be something different...
interesting.
My description fits what I am used to in Germany - and what I once had in the German speaking part of Switzerland. Thus I assumed it was universal.
Making a fuss about it, would be something different...
Apr 15th, 2007, 10:48 AM
#39
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"Making a fuss about it, would be something different.."
Amen. Some of my most pleasurable dining experiences in Europe have been getting something totally different from what I expected it to be.
Amen. Some of my most pleasurable dining experiences in Europe have been getting something totally different from what I expected it to be.
