Planning a trip to Paris in the fall and have been looking over all the wonderful websites pertaining to Paris. I have noticed many times when they talk about using the ATM machines they only refer to using credit cards at them. Do the ATM cards not work there? I have used my ATM in Europe before with no problems. I believe if I use my credit card to obtain cash I am charged an extra fee for that so I don't really want to do it that way. Also it has been stressed several times that if your PIN is numerical you should convert it to alpha before you go. Does that mean that the keys do not show both as most of them do here? <BR> <BR>Thanks.

You've got it just backwards, Wanda. If your pin number is alpha, you must convert it to a 4-figure number. I recently returned from Holland where a couple of women in the group had alpha numbers, and it doesn't work to try to convert them. Besides, they are generally 5 digits long, but it sounds like you have numerical anyway, so you are ok. Yes, the ATM machines take both credit cards which are being used for cash advances and your own bank ATM card for immediate withdrawal from your own bank. The latter is definitely the way to go, as the Visa accounts generally charge you hefty transaction fees plus interest on amount withdrawn, whereas your bank charges you only the flat fee you pay at home for any amount of cash you withdraw, using any bank other than your own. Sounds like you already have everything in place and nothing to worry about. Enjoy your time in Paris. We're going next spring. It's Prague and Budapest for us this fall.

They're small. It's prudent to take both. <BR>

I took my Nations Bank debit ATM/credit card and my Master Card to Paris in May. I only used my NB card because I had no conversion fees or commission fees. My other card would charge me 3% conversion fees. I took my MC only for a back up. Best to take 2!

Joyce, <BR> <BR>No I don't believe I have it backwards. If it has said convert from alpha to numbers I wouldn't have thought anything about it. Maybe they do it differently in Holland than in Paris. <BR> <BR>Anyone else know about this issue? <BR> <BR> <BR>

Wanda, <BR> <BR>My debit cards have 4 digit numeric PIN's. They worked in UK, France, Italy, Austria, Germany and Switzerland. One is a Nations Bank debit card. Use your debit card for cash withdrawal at ATM machines. You get currency for the country you are visting without a conversion fee and at the interbank rate for that day. <BR>The bank may charge you a transaction fee of about $1 to $2. But that is whole lot cheaper and at a better exchage rate than converting US dollars or Travelers checks to the local currency. Use your credit card for purchases When possible. Your purchase on a credit card is charged at the interbank rate without a conversion fee or transaction fee. DON'T use the credit card in a ATM machine unless you need to. You pay a cash advance fee of about 2% and interest from the day of withdrawal at the card rate untill you pay it off. <BR> <BR>In Rome I found some vendors selling maps for one US dollar. A few one dollar bills might be helpfull. Of course you could pay 1900 lira. <BR> <BR>Bonjour <BR> <BR>Royce

Wanda -- <BR> <BR>Normally it is folly to challenge someone else's memory. However, your memory of the "number to alpha" conversion must, on purely logical/ mathematical basis, be wrong. It would be logically absurd to convert a 1 to A, B or C; convert a 3 to a G, H or I; etc. Such a conversion would have neither meaning nor purpose except as a memory aid to the person making the conversion -- machines don't care.

Thanks to those of you who gave information in a helpful fashion. Then we have those who always have to try to make others look wrong. Sounds like the same ones who wanted to not allow questions from newcomers.

Well, if I had it backwards (and you do), I'd appreciate being straightened out. You asked a question and received accurate responses. No one made you "look wrong". You are/were mistaken. If you've used your ATM card successfully and have already determined that this is preferable for you, why bother posting a question? Perhaps the folks who refer to using credit cards at ATM's for cash are "charging" their entire trip. But, I've never, ever, seen it emphasized anywhere that one should change their PIN from numeric to alpha. No one minds questions from newcomers. Some folks are more articulate than others - those who inquire, and those who respond. "What countries did you enjoy and why?" is a different question than "Where should I go?" Suggestions that newcomers read through the multitude of posts and do a search would be well taken.

How do you know I have it backwards? I don't think I mentioned what websites I had seen this on---so once again let me ask you---how do YOU know I have it backwards? The fact is you DON'T know. You just assume that you are the only one who could possibly be right. My question CLEARLY said I had used my ATM in Europe, not Paris. Let's see why bother asking a question. If that's not one of those trying to prevent newcomer's from asking questions I don't think anyone else could have done a better imitation. <BR>Let me be one of those to remind you that you are under no obligation to read or respond to any inquiry on this board.

OK enough with the verbal brickbats. <BR>I thought the objective was to help people enjoy their travels. <BR> <BR>For the record let me review the some key facts about international currency exchange in hopes that first time travelers to Europe will have a good picture of the situation. <BR> <BR>1. Fees for using ATM cards, bank debit (bank check) cards and credit cards have made many decisions about how to acquire foreign currency and make purchases more complicated. Credit card issuers have started charging "conversion fees" for non US dollar denominated purchases. ATM card issuers have started charging for use of the card at machines other than their own. All of these fees will have to be taken into consideration when evaluating the other statements. Call your credit card issuer and ask questions about currency conversion fees and ATM card use fees. <BR>2. Using a credit card for purchases normally gets the best rate of exchange because the purchase is converted at the bank wholesale rate. (The above statement does assume that you are not in danger of exceeding your limit and incurring penalties because of it.) <BR>2. Purchasing foreign currency at a US bank often costs you an extra 5% relative to the wholesale bank rate. <BR>3. Until recently, the hands-down winner of the cheapest way to acquire foreign currency was to use a an ATM card or debit (check) card. But extra charges and conversion charges have clouded the picture. Even so, coverting US currency results in a substantial conversion fee -- as high as 5% in some cases. Even with fees, ATMs are usually cheaper than converting currency. <BR>4. ATM cards of the standard ATM type (wherein the money is taken directly from your checking account) will work in most ATM machines, but there are instances when they will not. Depending on the situation there may or may not be a bank surcharge for using them. Charges can be made by the owner of the ATM hardware and by the issuer of the card. In double charge situations, alternative forms of acquiring currency become distinct possibilities. <BR>5. Bank debit or check cards are a necessary backup to "regular" ATM cards. If the debit card is of one particular brand, e.g. Visa or Master Card, it may not work at all banks, and ATM cards do not always work, either. <BR>6. Numeric "pin" numbers are needed in Europe -- 4 digits. <BR>7. American Express checks in foreign denominations can be bought at good rates of exchange; the rates are more in your favor than purchasing foreign currency. If you know the checks will be accepted where you are going, or if you know that the checks can be easily converted to local currency, they might be cheaper than using ATM machines. It all depends on the surcharge and conversion fees you run into. <BR>8. Always have a backup card in case a hungry ATM machine decides it wants to eat your flavor of plastic. <BR>9. Have access to reserve money to cover an emergency. <BR>10. Know how to report a lost or stolen card. Many big card issuers have special hot lines for this purpose. <BR> <BR>I hope these observations help. Surcharges and fees have muddied the situation considerably. <BR> <BR>My own practice is to have a reserve of travelers checks in US dollar form. If I don't need them, they are good when I get home. <BR>The statement I made above about needing a debit card as backup results from personal experience. Last year in Switzerland, I was in Lauterbrunnen. One bank accepted only MC brand plastic while the other bank accepted only Visa. My Visa-labelled debit card got out all the money I needed, but only at the one bank. In Luzern, I went to a "big" bank and it seemed to make no difference between ATM and debit cards. I used the standard ATM card with no trouble. <BR>Later, in Saas Grund, back to the Visa debit card. <BR> <BR>Now for some personal practices, I have found it beneficial to carry a little of the local currency. Even though I pay more for it, I am paying for convenience and insurance. There are times when ATM's don't work and banks are not open. <BR> <BR>I also like to have a few "green" dollars on me for my return home. Sometimes, depending on where you are, American currency can be used to your advantage.

Wanda, I have used my numerical ATM card in England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, France and Austria, as well as Holland, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

CHILL OUT LADIES.

Joyce, <BR> <BR>Unlike you I never said you were wrong. You need to go back and read my original question again. It clearly said that I had read that on some websites I had looked at. That's why I was asking the question---because I wanted to know if the advice on the website was right. Do me a favor Joyce---don't bother responding to any more of my questions and I will do the same with you.

I appear, inadvertently, to have started this brouhaha, and to the degree that any apology is felt necessary, I extend mine. To say that something is "logically absurd" is not a personal attack and is not an attempt to prove "someone" wrong. It is an attempt to prove the issue in question wrong. And the fact remains that converting numberic to alpha would be logically absurd. So either the website which says to do so is wrong, or the memory of what it said is wrong. If the memory is accurate -- then you best discount the remembered information. -- End of my participation in discussion.

Wanda (et al), <BR> <BR>Whatever else you do, be aware that different banks in different cities "think" of your withdrawal in different ways. Some Parisian banks reported our withdrawal as a "credit purchase" of francs, while a couple of Barcelona banks "decided" to withdraw funds from savings rather than checking (same card used in all cases), even though there was no menu option allowing me to specify which account to get the money from. My own bank verified that my ATM "profile" specified my checking account as primary or default account, so that shouldn't have happened -- the money should have been withdrawn from checking. <BR> <BR>Bottom line (so to speak), get a 4-digit numerical pin number for a couple of different cards (both Visa and MC) and make sure that you have money (or credit) in all accounts to which they apply, just in case the foreign ATM "decides" to take money from an unexpected account, doesn't find enough in that account, and "eats" the card for insufficient funds.

Wanda <BR>The "gist" of the above discussion is that European ATMs only accept 4 digit numeric pins. Period. The website[s] that said "alpha" are wrong. <BR>

Wanda: You may want to consider Compuserve or AOL or another web service and visiting the travel boards there. You can get even more opinions!

Take both in case you want to use your ATM and the machine eats it up an won't return it and worse yet, it is a weekend. It has not happened to me but I have read that machines will eat them up. I would also recommend traveler's checks and some cash for great deals. It is like investing, never put all your eggs in one basket.

Wanda: <BR>Whoever said you might want to try Compuserve was being kind. What you really might want to try is some counselling. You are too defensive and resistant to correction for your own good. Nobody ever meant to imply that YOU had reversed the information -only that you had the information in your post backwards. Whether you flipped it or the website did isn't the point. The point is that it was backwards and several people were kind enough to provide you with the correct information. Instead of taking it as a personal attack, how about thanking them. Oh, and if you need the name of a good therapist I'm sure someone can help you with that, too.